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Hello everyone my name is Andrea.Silvestri and on behalf of GSA center.for emerging building technologies and.the GPG program I'd like to welcome you.to today's webinar on small circulator.pumps with automated control before we.get started I want to go over a few.webinar logistics.today's webinar is based on a report by.the National Renewable Energy Laboratory.you can find the full report as well as.a four-page report summary and a.one-page infographic at gsa.gov slash.GPG.today's webinar will be recorded.recordings and slides for all webinars.are available on the JSA that got that.gov website you should also receive an.email next week with a link to the.recording as well as answers to some of.the top QA.GPG webinars are presented monthly our.upcoming November webinar will be on.advanced lighting controls with LED this.report will be released shortly and.provides guidance on where advanced.lighting controls can be best applied.December's webinar will present findings.from three different alternative water.treatment reports that will be released.in November GPG has looked at five.different technologies now and found.that four out of the five maintained.water quality while at the same time.reducing water use this webinar will.discuss the findings and provide.deployment recommendations.all GPG webinars offer continuing.education credits to receive credit.complete the post webinar survey if you.did not receive a copy of the survey.please contact Michael Hopson.broadcasts will be listen only you may.submit questions by using the chat box.on the right side of your screen you do.not need to wait until the Q&A session.to submit your questions in fact we.encourage you to submit questions.throughout the presentation now I'd like.to introduce Jay fine who is the project.manager for the circulator pump.evaluation.Andrea and hi everybody today hopefully.we're going to be able to answer all of.your questions throughout the.presentation and give you a lot of great.information on the screen right now you.see my contact information so hopefully.in the future if there's an opportunity.where you're looking to install one of.these technologies and you're looking.for some more information I'm the one.you can contact and I'm happy to either.answer your questions or I can get you.to contact the right people.go ahead next slide please.okay so today here's our agenda for this.webinar the the first thing is you're.going to get a five minute introduction.for me which I would say I've already.started when I'm done with that you're.gonna hear from Jessie Dean who's with.the Department of Energy's National.Renewable Energy Laboratory or NREL and.he's going to tell you about the.evaluation we did in the results of this.evaluation of a small circulator pumps.with automated controls and then after.that you're gonna hear from Tyler Cooper.who's with GSA's region eight which is.in Denver which is where this evaluation.took place and he's going to give you.what we call on-the-ground feedback.which is really if you think about it.kind of like the owner or user.perspective on this so I'll tell you a.little bit about the installation if.there were an EM issues and then if you.were going to put one of these pumps in.kind of what you could expect and then.after that we're going to leave plenty.of time for questions and answers and.just to reiterate what Andre I already.told you is that we are not going to.unmute you we do not want to either hear.everybody eating potato chips for 20.minutes while we're going through this.so any questions you have you need to.put them into the chat box and we'll.capture those and then we'll go through.those and present those for you and also.encourage you to put in those questions.as they come up so if you hear something.and you're thinking of it go ahead and.pop it into that chat box press alright.next load please.about the program that I work in which.is called emerging building technologies.and within that there are two distinct.programs one is called GSA proving.grounds and since that's a lot of words.to say we give that an acronym which is.GPG and what happens in GPG is companies.come up with technologies that could.potentially provide some financial.benefit to GSA and those are things that.that benefit comes from reduction in.some type of natural resource which is.usually energy or electricity.they give that technology to GSA we take.it and we put it into a real operating.GSA facility and then we bring in that.Department of Energy as kind of a.third-party evaluator and we take a look.and see if that technology does provide.the performance that they claim and if.it could have some benefits for GSA and.so that's what you're going to hear.about today the the result of one of.those GPG evaluations the next thing.that we do is called pilots portfolio or.p2p and that's our group's effort to.support the deployment of those proven.technologies through our GSA they're.trying to get those things and once we.know that they're good and that they.have value trying to get those installed.in other GSA buildings so combining.those two programs together those are.things that enable GSA to make sound.investment decisions and next generation.building technologies based on their.real-world performance okay next slide.please.right so today you're going to hear.about small circulator pumps with.automated controls so this is this is an.evaluation that took place as I.mentioned at the Denver Denver federal.federal Center and there are two.applications of this one is in a.domestic hot water application and the.other one is in an air handler unit and.to understand the application think.about at home when you go take a shower.you turn on the water the first thing.that comes out of your showerhead is.cold water and that's because their.water is in the pipe that goes from your.showerhead all the way back to your hot.water heater has to clear before you get.to that hot water if you think about.what happens in a big commercial or.Federal Building there's like that could.be a long run from where that source is.all the way to where the discharge is so.what typically happens is they put in a.circulator line which is which has hot.water circulating and that circulation.takes place with a pump that moves that.water through the line typically those.pumps are constant speed they're just on.and they run all the time it's estimated.that there's about 30 million of those.types of pumps throughout the United.States so what we evaluated was a.technology that does two things to.improve on that constant speed pump one.is that it has a variable speed and the.second thing is that has sensors and.logic that are built-in that tell it.when it should run faster run slower.shut off all those types of things so.that it can improve the performance and.the energy consumption of the pumps next.slide please.all right so I'm going to go ahead and.turn this over to people who can tell.you more about the details of what we.did and what we found so our first.presenter is Jesse Dean and as I.mentioned Jesse works for NREL he's been.there for 11 years he has a BS in.mechanical engineering from Colorado.State University and he has a master's.in civil engineering from building.systems program at the University of.Colorado and Jesse manages the support.that that GSA proving ground gets from.NREL and he also manages support that.that NREL provides to a similar program.at DoD called environmental security.technologies certification program or es.TCP on this project jesse was the.principal investigator so Jesse if you.go ahead and make sure that you're.unmuted I'm going to go ahead and turn.this over to you okay yeah Thank You Jay.and thanks everyone for taking the time.to join us today.okay next thing.really quickly we're going to kind of.walk through the opportunity for these.small circulator pump.as Jay mentioned there's about 30.million of them that are estimated to be.in operation in the United States the.estimated energy efficiency gains from.replacing those I would is estimated at.over 50%.and I think one of the interesting notes.here is that over 90 percent of the.currently installed circulator pumps are.the older constant volume pumps with.standard induction motors and we'll kind.of get into the details in the next.slide of what a circulator pump is but I.think at a high level the main takeaway.here is that there's a very kind of.large opportunity throughout the United.States and to date only a small number.of those you know have been retrofitted.with these high-performance circulator.pumps.so if next time.performance circulator pump the.definition for a circulator pump itself.is essentially a small pump that has the.motor rotor the pump impeller and the.support bearings that are all sealed.inside of the pump sometimes you're.going to hear these called in-line pumps.as the pump planters are mounted.directly to the piping system as she.noted I think one of those big kind of.technological advances or innovations.with this technology is that we're.moving from kind of an older inefficient.induction motor to a modern kind of ECM.motor the ECM motor itself has kind of.integrated power electronics that allows.integrated speed control so that the.pump can ramp up and down without having.to have a secondary variable frequency.drive this pump also has a number of.kind of pre-programmed control modes.which you'll see there and it has the.ability to do kind of local and remote.monitoring of all of the operational.characteristics of the pump so you're.able to monitor things like pump power.you know BTUs of heat delivered supply.water temperature pump speed all of.those things are actually built into the.internals of the pump.one thing that I think is important to.note is that the energy Energy Policy.Act of 1992 kind of sets the first.efficiency standards for motors but they.did not apply to motors that are less.than one horsepower and so for a lot of.these pumps including the ones you'll.see in our demonstration here they are.going to have really low kind of motor.efficiencies and low power factors and.so moving to these kind of modern.state-of-the-art pumps tend to have.greater energy savings and you'll see.and kind of larger commercial building.applications these are applied to motors.that are 2 and 1/2 horsepower or smaller.this particular vendor has a number of.control modes that are integrated into.the pump you'll see this constant speed.constant pressure proportional pressure.auto adapt flow adapt the one that is.used for domestic hot water.recirculation pumps is the constant.temperature mode where the pump has an.internal temperature sensor in it and.you typically set that return water.temperature setpoint to about 10 degrees.Fahrenheit below the domestic water tank.set point and then the pump will.essentially ramp up and down to meet.that setpoint temperature I would say.some of the other control modes in here.like auto adapt and flow adapts are more.geared towards air handling unit.application.okay next time.so.quick comparison to standard pumps you.know the energy savings come from ten to.twenty percent more efficient motor you.also have a more efficient pump itself.so the optimized impeller gets ten to.fifteen percent hydraulic savings and.then really the big savings comes from.the built-in control algorithm this.particular one also has a built-in.nighttime step back feature and you can.see the savings estimates from the.vendor is up to 65% for for this.particular pump.okay my friend.so in terms of the measurement.verification that we perform this was at.the Denver federal center the first.building that was installed in is.building 810 where we did side-by-side.testing of two air handling unit heating.coil booster pumps and we'll get into.the details of all of these on the next.few slides here and then for building 67.we retrofitted two domestic hot water.recirculation pumps okay so this graphic.is a graphic that essentially just shows.you what the different kind of operating.ranges are for the different models of.pumps that this particular manufacturer.offers you can see even though they're.smaller tune out horsepower pumps you do.get you can have a fairly large flow.rate up to over 300 gallons per minute.and then you can also see on the.left-hand side the head pressure that.the pump is able to provide when we.started this demonstration the smallest.pump that was manufactured was the 40 80.that's listed there and then about.halfway through they re-released the 32.132 60 pumps and as you'll see in the.next few slides we're testing these on.kind of the smallest pumps that were.available so when we started the demo we.started with an evaluation of the 40 80.and then about halfway through move to.the 30 to 100 one thing I would know is.for domestic hot water recirculation.pumps especially in high-rise buildings.you're essentially kind of pumping a.small amount of fluid up to the top of a.facility and so those typically tend to.be dominated with high head pressure and.low flow rates it's a very challenging.point on the pump curve for these pumps.to operator.and then for things like baseboard.radiant coils or air humming unit.booster pumps or grants or seafoam.circulators a lot of times you're going.to have kind of higher flow and lower.head on those so for example for the age.you booster pump that we looked at it.just a single pump on a single air.handling unit coil and it essentially.just kind of boosts the flow rate.through that coil from the main heating.system and so the differential pressure.high pressure that has to be offset is.just the pressure from that coil so it's.the lower head pressure higher flow.application okay next thing.so just quickly on the results for the.domestic hot water pumps that we tested.the first one is domestic at Waterfront.number one this pump served the first.floor and cafeteria of the facility and.then domestic hot water recirculation.pump number two served force two through.eight starting on the first table there.you'll see that the baseline pump was.just a quarter horsepower pump it you.know the smallest pump that's.manufactured for these applications was.originally retrofitted with the model 40.80 pump which the sizing isn't exactly.the same but it roughly comes out to.about point three seven horsepower and.then the duty point power is essentially.what the the power draw from the pump is.you know at the peak flow rate and peak.differential pressure so one thing.that's interesting that you'll see here.is you know moving from the baseline.pump to the high-performance circulator.pump you were able to get over a forty.four percent energy savings even if the.pump were to run at 100% speed all the.time so very significant energy savings.for this and you see you know the low.level wire to water efficiencies which.is just a metric of pump efficiency.multiplied by motor efficiency and again.the reason those are low is because it's.you know higher differential pressure or.higher head pressure combined with low.flow rates but we had significant.increase in large water efficiency for.the 4080 about half way through we.replaced the pump with a pump that was.more directly sized for the original.pump and you can see that it almost.doubled the wire to water efficiency and.we're able to get about a 72 percent.energy savings at full load so very.significant energy savings even if the.pumps were to run at full load similar.story for the domestic hot water pump.number two you can see very significant.duty point power reductions across the.board here.the same thing with this one where we.you know replaced it with a model 40 80.and then eventually replaced it with a.smaller one there the you know duty.point power savings for here was 53.percent for the model 40 80 and then 74.percent for the other one so again very.significant energy savings even if the.pumps were to operate at full speed.there okay.so this is a graph that just shows the.daily average load profiles for the.pumps over the monitoring period the.green line is what the baseline comes.looks like I think you know for any kind.of constant volume air handling unit or.constant volume pumping system what.you'll see is essentially there's just a.flat line as soon as the pump turns on.you know I use same amount of power.throughout its entire operating profile.this is one of the big reasons why it's.really important to kind of move away.from constant volume air handlers and.constant volume pumping systems is.there's no fluctuation and power based.on the actual load of the system.so the gray the gray lines are showing.you what the pump power was for the.model 40 80 and then the blue line shows.you what the pump power was for the 30.to 100 again this is averaged over the.entire monitoring period but essentially.what would happen is the pumps would.ramp up in the morning to kind of keep.the line once the lining has been heated.they kind of just intermittently turn on.and off or they intermittently ramp up.and down throughout the day as people.are using domestic hot water so in a.domestic hot water recirculation pump.application they have the potential for.very significant energy savings because.they you know are able to run at their.lowest speed until people are using the.faucet and there's there's a demand so.as you can see we had very significant.energy savings for the domestic hot.water comes next.so the measured energy savings that we.got for domestic hot water pump number.one was 90% for the forty eighty and.ninety six percent for the model 32 100.for domestic hot water pump number two.you'll see the energy savings.percentages were really similar there.the total kilowatt hour of savings for.domestic hot water pump number two or.roughly twice as high as the other one.and the reason for that was so the flow.rate and the load that that one was.serving was about twice as high because.again it was pumping you know that.domestic hot water fluid up to date or.the facility but as you can see here we.have greater energy savings than we were.anticipating on these due to the pumps.being more efficient and then also being.able to kind of ramp down during during.their operating trading box okay next.so this is a table that shows you what.the economics look like here.so I'm just going to kind of go through.these one by one the the annual energy.cost savings is a combination of the.energy cost savings and the estimated.demand savings they have a kind of.complicated time of use rate here so we.did try to estimate you know what the.demand and energy savings were given.that they operated continuously during.the middle of the day we just assumed.that you know the demand savings are.coincident with the peak savings their.one thing to note though is that the.annual O&M savings was $75 a year and.the on-site staff were estimating that.those savings come from not having to.grease the bearings or replace the pump.seals.so the onm savings for these small.clumps are very significant you know as.much or more than the energy savings and.then we looked at the economics in terms.of an end of life replacement so you.know assuming that you have a domestic.hot water pump that is failed and we're.putting in a new one these are roughly.five hundred seventy five dollars more.expensive than the market standard pump.so in those cases the simple payback you.can see is three to four years so very.attractive kind of payback for for both.applications are.okay next time.so the next one that we looked at was.the air handling unit evaluation this.one was different than the other one in.that we tried to essentially find two.air handling units that were as.identical as possible and so we have an.air handling unit number 17 and 19 and.building East and where we did.side-by-side testing so rather than.doing before and after testing we just.monitored these in parallel there was a.pretty big difference though and the.approach I one of the things was the air.handling unit 17 pump had failed.prior to starting the demo and so we had.to replace the baseline pump with a kind.of a modern market standard pump by.Grundfos which ended up being a lot more.efficient and you know an older 10 to.15-year pump that you would see in that.application and so this is more of an.analysis of what is a new market.standard pump look like versus a new.high performance circulator pump so for.air handler number 19 we we put in the.high performance circulator pump and.then we also closed off the bypass valve.on the three-way valve there the bypass.valve essentially for constant volume.systems allows the water to bypass the.heating coil when the valve starts to.close down and so you need to kind of.close that for variable speed.applications so that you're able to just.directly modulate the flow that's going.through those.okay.so the air handling unit demonstration.was a little more complicated than the.other one.when we first selected these both air.handlers were operating for about 20.hours per day but the air handling unit.19 was not meeting this earth air.temperature setpoint and that was not.not kind of responding to the control.mode signals correctly and it was.determined that the facility needed to.be retro commissioned and so they did a.kind of a full retro commissioning of.the entire facility which delayed the.demo by about a year and then after the.facility was commissioned the air.handling unit number 19 was only.operating very intermittently it was.serving an internal zone within the.building and so it would essentially.kind of turn on for a couple hours in.the morning that keeps his own up then.the zone would switch over to cooling.mode and the pump would turn off all day.and then it would run for a couple hours.at night so it was a challenging I think.demonstration from that perspective.because we had a number of changes that.happened as we were going along here but.I think are definitely kind of good.lessons learned for future projects.so the way we estimated the savings was.we just since they're having a tonight.17 runs at a constant power while.operating we compared its energy usage.to air handler 19 next thing.the mistress energy savings from the two.I think it's important to note if you.look at the first line the max power is.just slightly lower for the.high-performance circulator pump if you.remember in the domestic hot water ones.we went over we saw you know similar.from 44 to 73 percent reductions and.peak power when we compare this to an.older pump when you're comparing it to a.kind of new market standard pump it's.very little energy savings at a peak.power I think it's only about 7% and so.really the savings that are achieved or.when the pump is allowed to kind of ramp.up and down to meet the load and in this.case since the pump only ran for a few.hours a day it ran at a higher speed.than the domestic hot water pumps so.you'll see that we got a 35% on peak.savings 24% off-peak savings with a 25.point 7 percent overall savings going.next.so on the economics of this one the.first line just kind of walks through.what the annual cost savings were again.they're extremely low on the energy cost.savings because the pump really doesn't.doesn't run much but assuming the O&M.savings for this we still have a good.simple payback the incremental cost is.also lower because for domestic a lot of.recirculation pump applications you have.to have a stainless steel pump and for.heating hot water you can use the cast.iron pump so it's the cheaper cheaper.pump we did run another scenario where.we were looking at what the energy.savings would have been assuming that it.would have ran closer to the twenty.hours a day like it did when we first.looked at it and then also assuming that.the older pump that had failed was still.in there so again I think if you're.comparing this to an old market standard.pump that's in the end of its lifetime.you should anticipate getting good.savings if you do have a newer pump.that's just a couple of years old again.your savings are primarily going to come.down to the variable speaking the.operation.okay next time.so one of the main benefits for these.pumps is they do have pre-programmed.control modes that are built into them.the constant return water temperature is.a nice feature where essentially you're.only using the on/off from the building.automation system control we ended up.using it just a 0 to 10 volt control for.the heating pump the reason for that was.the auto adapts mode does not work well.if the pump is oversized and operating.on the lower end of it some curve but.again you can use the internal control.mode to the pumps and a big benefit from.being able to do that is you don't have.to add a number of points to the BAS.which can be more expensive than the.pumps themselves so having those.internal control modes I think is very.valuable and allows you to just.typically use kind of an on/off or one.additional point from the building.automation system instead of having to.add a bunch of point then as noted.before for a standard pump you would.also have to add a variable frequency.drive in or a number of other things so.having all of this integrated into the.pump provides a lot of value in terms of.the cost effectiveness of it.okay nice.so the lessons learned that we have I.think we covered these already you know.for any eating or chilled water or.rating based applications you do need to.make sure that if they have three-way.valve that you're either converting that.to a two-way valve or closing off the.bypass so that it's allowed to operate.as a variable flow system and as we.noted on the last one bas integration.costs can greatly increase the overall.price to the point where those could be.more expensive than the pumps themselves.if all the PAS points were integrated.okay next thing.another important point I think that's.challenging for these smaller circulator.pumps is they typically don't have.differential pressure points or ports.and so you're not able to actually kind.of look up on the pump curve exactly.where the pump is operating and you're.really just kind of looking at a what.size pump is currently installed we do.have a couple of approaches that could.be taken to making sure that you're.correctly sizing the pump I would say.for a lot of these you're probably going.to see that the existing pump is.oversized and I would work with the.manufacturer to kind of help you write.size that pump so as you can see for the.domestic hot water ones even though we.had good energy saving.we got better savings and better.economics by right sizing those so it is.tricky with these but just something to.look at there.okay so I think that's how I have oh no.one more so in terms of deployment.recommendations.I would say domestica what a.recirculation pumps are should be.targeted with as little as 40 hours a.week of operation and low electric rate.the heating and chilled water pumps you.know you want to look at systems that.operate more than 10 hours a day.those can be challenging because if your.cooling system only runs for four months.per year it has a lot less operation.than a domestic hot water pump that's.running all year long so just kind of.need to look at you know how many hours.per year is it running for these little.pumps that serve multiple coils you.should also have better savings so if I.have a circulator pump that serves let's.say six radiant baseboard heating coils.I'm gonna have a larger fluctuation in.the flow rate and I'm going to need to.keep that pump on you know during the.operating hours to meet those loads and.so I would look for applications where a.single pump serves multiple heating your.cooling coil and then we're also.estimating that the circulator pumps.could be a good fit for ground source.ecosystems.know him.all right with that I'll turn it back.over to GSA.all right great thanks Jesse alright so.let me introduce our next presenters.Tyler Cooper Tyler's with GSA he's in.region 8 which is Denver.Tyler's a supervisory energy project.manager and he has a degree mechanical.engineering ty was on our project team.from the onset and he's what I would.call the conduit kind of between the.evaluation team and the local operations.and maintenance staff so he gives kind.of a unique perspective of he.understands both what we were trying to.do from an evaluation standpoint and.also taking a look at what happened on.the ground and and at the location where.they died where the evaluation took.place and operations and maintenance.staff that was dealing with it so tau is.going to give you what we call.on-the-ground feedback about the project.so Tyler if you're unmuted I'm going to.go ahead and let you take it over.Thanks day.something unexplained.so I'm kind of like sir knots as far as.the installation of these pumps goes.right away like very simple installation.is the length of life replacement the.pumps come with the necessary flange.kits so pretty much remove the existing.confidently I've been possible integrate.right into the existing system assume.you've met all your sizing constraints.within both of our applications we were.able to use the existing bas controls.which in this case was just on-off.signal coming from the BAS one of the.things that was convenient with these.boxes they have easily swapped warlock.communication cards so for the purpose.of this study we used Modbus cards to.send and relative respective data that.they needed for the internal pump.sensors and then once that initial data.evaluation was completed with NREL we.were able to pull off those martha's.cards and then switch switch and new.bacnet cards to allow that integration.into RBS and pull those points out of.the system next slide.so gently kind of alluded to already all.of the new pump contains all the.internal controls that are required so.you can time this is kind of a.representative example of that display.you can take the control mode and then.you get live feedback from the prophets.do the Asheville power it's consuming.and the differential add pressure that.is reading at the same time on as well.as the all the other sensors that are.built into the pump so within that you.have the ability to go through and.change those control modes as necessary.and kind of tune that process to your.application based on what you can get.the best performance list.one of the things that is available with.these grandpa's pumps that we didn't.test was smartphone application and this.is pretty much allows you to go through.and then you have remote control but we.have IT constraints with that which.divideth wasn't tested for this study.nextslide.so kind of one things we pointed out is.with the list of sensors and Diagnostics.built into the pump does allow for you.to go through and get real-time feedback.from these pumps do you go through like.we kind of said do a yearly basis with.reviewing the power at this point but.clean go through and check that power.usage to see if you are having any.issues with your system whether it be in.the domestic hot water and different.sorts of their applications.kind of see how those pumps are.responding if you are having any.packages or anything that would be lower.in their overall system performance at.that point and the other piece we talked.about is you also have the reduced.maintenance not having to change those.seals and bearings on those pumps.huh next bye.so some issues we ran into during this.project that just did to consider in the.future for the air handler applications.the flow direction on the pipes wasn't.labeled so when the onm staff initially.went in installed one of the pumps they.installed that pop backwards so that was.kind of something that had to go be me.we had to go back and rectify and make.sure that was flowing correctly the.other piece that Jesse mentioned was the.retro commissioning so we had a number.of points that were either programmed in.correctly in our bas more bad sequences.that were in place so that's what -.incorrect operations for the system so.once we had those fixed and the entire.BES is reprogrammed we were seeing the.appropriate response from the air.handlers and the surge of their pots.that were going on.as far as issues with the pumps.themselves the initial 3100 pump that we.had installed we had to replace that.Modbus cards in that pump it wasn't.responding correctly giving us giving us.the data out of that the power factor we.did see a significant improvement from.the 3100 to 4280 tough as well.especially at lower speeds and then kind.of a thing I mentioned on the last slide.is right now the mobile access to the.control application is authorized to use.dc/dt at this point.nextslide.so.recommendation at this point is.evaluating these at the end of life when.we are replacing those smaller pumps and.kind of looking at those runtime hours.in the case of most of these.applications we had the pumps scheduled.on with the BES already so we're only.seeing those savings during operating.hours but we are seeing increased.control that we weren't getting prior to.installing these pumps.like in the case of the air handlers.because it was internal load and they.were secondary pumps the other piece we.found was that the main water pumps from.the building were able to meet a lot of.that load so it's kind of evaluating the.existing conditions that you are seeing.to make sure we are getting out of run.time for the pumps when we are.evaluating these opportunities.and then the other piece that Jesse.mentioned is the dudes one of the huge.reasons we have savings with these pumps.is the varying load that exists in the.building so in the case of the domestic.hot water pumps we were able to control.based on the building load looking at.the returned water temperature that was.going being returned to the system and.get real-time feedback to the pumps as.far as what's going on in the building.and then post will be able to travel.back the pumps and see those energy.savings and that's all I have so that'll.pass it back to Jay and then we'll start.the question and answer session great.thanks Tyler okay so I'm going to do is.we've captured the questions that you.guys have put into the chat box I'm.going to run through them and we'll.provide answers Jesse and Tyler if you.just be on the ready we're gonna need.your assistance and answering some of.these so the first question was about.how you get CL Keaney or how you get.continuing education unit credits for.this it's very simple after this if you.were enrolled you're going to get a.request to do a survey if you complete.that survey you're going to get a.response that will have include a.certificate that shows that you attended.right and then the next question we had.was have there been any issues with.short cycling or DP spikes leading the.water hammer due to speed changes that.have been insufficient to accommodate.dramatic fluctuations in demand Jessie I.think you'd be a good one to take that.honesty.yeah so we didn't observe any water.hammering effects with these yeah I'm.not sure kind of globally how big of an.issue that will be but again they do.kind of provide a minimum flow while.they're operating and then the pumps.will ramp up and down to meet that flow.so I would say it's similar to you know.how a variable-speed pump runs in a you.know a chilled water plant or a heating.plant but we didn't experience any kind.of water hammering in this one.thanks Jesse and.next question was what is the.incremental cost of the pump include I'm.gonna try to take a shot at this and.then Justin you can add in if I miss.anything the one is that includes the.actual differential and price of the.actual pump itself the other thing.that's included in that is the.additional amount of time that's.expected for labor to install that pump.it was estimated to be an additional two.hours of labor and a lot of that is not.related to actually hooking up the pump.itself but there's some additional.programming that had to be done on those.pumps.it was also expected that that 2 hours.could be reduced over time because as.people learn how to do that programming.the speed that that that can be.accomplished could actually be increased.and that it may not take as much time to.do that but in terms of our analysis we.use 2 hours of additional labor Jessie.anything besides that you want to add no.ok great.all right the next question was please.explain or describe the domestic hot.water pump control system how's the pump.controlled is the pump controlled by hot.water use or demand and hot water.recirculating temperature describe the.demand.spencer's devices and temperature.sensors that control the pump describe.what controls the pump speed what.sensors are used to control pump speed.that's a lot of stuff but Jessie I think.you could probably take all that if you.need me to break it up let me know and I.can come back ok yeah so for the.domestic hot water recirculation systems.there's a temperature sensor that.internal to the pump and so during that.set up process that Jay mentioned.essentially was with the Denver federal.center staff did was look at the.domestic hot water tank setpoint.temperature and then programmed the the.temperature setpoint that's in the.domestic hot water pump to be 10 degrees.below that that's kind of the industry.standard rule of thumb on how to do that.programming but essentially you're just.going to determine what is an.appropriate set point temperature that.you want the return from the domestic.hot water recirculation line to be set.and then the pump itself just.automatically ramps up and down to.maintain that so if the temperatures.coming back too low then the pump ramps.up until a table to meet that.temperature and then will wrap itself.back down so the only control that.really needs to happen is the building.owner inputting the returned water.temperature setpoint and then also.selecting that control mode from the.pump there.they great alright the next question is.did the study look at the scenario where.a constant speed pump was turned off at.night using a simple timer this might be.a way to achieve a large portion of the.savings without having to add the.advance pumps with their marginal call.listen you might tackle that one.no I think his tailor said they were.already pretty aggressive in the way.they were scheduling everything the.domestic hot water pumps were on a.predefined building schedule the air.handling unit pumps were set up to only.turn on if there was a call for a load.and so they were not on a schedule and.and that's kind of why the air handling.unit 19 was was off most of the day was.they already had a really aggressive.schedule a really aggressive control.sequence applied to those air handler.pumps to make sure they're only.operating while they were running again.I think if it's providing heating to a.multiple heating coils either air.handlers or Iranian baseboard heaters.you're not able to do that you do have.to keep them on a schedule but in this.case they did that the pump though does.have the nighttime side back feature in.it so you know for some reason if it's.if it's there's no connection to a.building automation system what you can.do is just set up the nighttime setback.internal to the pump itself and it would.turn itself off so you could kind of do.the bas scheduling with with just the.pump in that case.our great thanks Jesse you actually.answered another question which was does.the internal Punk program and.accommodate on-off scheduling for.unoccupied times I guess you can't.actually do that at the at the pump.itself but the next question is in.Germany we find usually the pumps are.over - mentioned by a factor of two did.you also check the dimensioning of the.pumps before exchanging them so you did.address this some Jesse in the.presentation is there anything else you.want to add no I mean yeah I would say.that you know most engineers are going.to be applying a safety factor to their.designs and you know I was pretty safe.to assume that their their oversized by.talking to the manufacturer they do.provide kind of on-the-ground analysis.to help people size these pumps.correctly and so again I think whichever.manufacturer you're deciding to go with.I would meet with them and kind of do a.run-through of your your pumps and see.if they can help you with the sizing I.would also say that the manufacturer.provided feedback that about 50% of the.time even if they are the pumps are.known to be oversized the client still.puts in the same size pump so you know I.think those were kind of some of the.major lessons learned here and we tried.to do our best to address those but.there's always going to be a challenge.with these smaller circulator pumps.great how did we calculate the O&M.savings just you won't talk about that.yeah we just met with Tyler's team and.they have provided guidance to us on.those so Tyler's group is the ones who.kind of gave us the installation costs.that we should expect from a standard.pump and then again these are kind of.site-specific onm costs based on you.know the onm that Tyler's team does and.the work that they were doing so I would.say that was you know some of the.numbers that you'll see presented in the.report are very specific to the site and.you know could be different at different.sites depending on the O&M protocols.that are used and yeah as far as the.onin cost savings we pretty much sense.that we're getting this much time.savings from not having to grease those.bearings replacing seals and then just.going off of our arrow and mechanic rate.for that contract and then with the.installation of these pumps is the same.piece where we just went through our own.contract oh and I'm contractor and had.them complete that work and I'm going.off that hourly mechanic right there for.the installments um.a great perfect all right the next.question is looking at the first slide.of Tyler the piping seems to be very.small dimensioned for the size of the.pump it's more a comment than a question.but Tyler or Jessie do you have any any.comments or response to that.yeah let me start in and Tyler can jump.in on this one I think again I mean well.I was trying to see if this is doméstica.water-pump number one or two this was.domestic hot water pump number two but.we have to keep in mind that these are.the smallest pumps that are manufactured.for commercial building applications you.don't get any smaller than kind of 1/4.or 1/2 horsepower and you know the water.lines are running in that scenario that.I mentioned where you have a very small.water line very high head pressure and.very low flow rate on those so I think.the reasons you know the pumps look big.is just because you know these these are.kind of some of the smaller pumping.applications in the buildings.Tyler you have anything out of that.no I think Jessie adequately covered it.okay great.next question this study appeared to.look only at the electrical energy used.by the pumps where the effects of the.changing pump speed on the thermal.energy studied that's a good one for you.Jessie yes we definitely looked at that.so in the report we have a performance.criteria or there's let's call them we.have a performance objectives table.that's in the report that outlines all.the performance objectives that we.wanted to hit the performance objective.related to this is essentially that the.systems are able to meet the thermal.load that they're serving and so we did.install a number of additional sensors.to track the returned water temperature.on the domestic hot water side to make.sure that it was meeting that returned.water temperature setpoint for the air.handling units or metric was ensuring.that we were still able to meet the.discharger temperature setpoint which.was one of the one of the drivers for.the retro-commissioning was that again.when we first got started neither the.baseline or the other pump were meeting.to start here temperature setpoint and.there was a number of known issues with.some of the control sequences but once.the retro-commissioning had happened the.pumps.started responding correctly to the.control mode and they were able to meet.the discharge air temperature set points.and we do have kind of those graphs and.that analysis is in the report there.a great next question is what percentage.of pump control and monitoring did you.do directly at the pump versus in the.BAS Tyler you want to take a shot at.that one yeah as far as the pump control.for both applications we use the we use.the command signal from the BAS as far.as trying that pumps on and off and.initiating that and then the rest of the.Asheville control mode of the pump we've.relied entirely on the internal controls.for that application so as far as the.monitoring goes we had secondary sensors.that we installed from NREL that we.compared the internal sensors on the.pump and then following the completion.of the study portion of a project we.were able to integrate those pumps into.the BES and then at that point on.package those monitoring points and not.using those form control so much in BS.but just from the on joint monitoring.performance template.good answer thank you all right just a.couple more guys so what's a good return.temp for domestic hot water.Jesse you want to tackle that yeah I.think it depends on the building and.what the setpoint temperature is on the.tank so for example if your tank is.heating the water to 120 degrees the.returned setpoint is going to be.somewhere in kind of the 110 you know.one 12 or 15 range.great and then the last question that we.have is how does a pump internal.temperature sensor control the pump.speed do the pump internal controls.contain programming that allows the pump.speed to be varied based on the domestic.water return temperature Jessie that's.probably one you could tackle yeah I.mean I'm not sure exactly the specifics.of how the manufacturer is setting that.up again those are those are kind of.sequences and programs that are built.into the pump itself regarding kind of.the ramp rate and how fast or slow it.responds to those systems or to those.control point changes we didn't get in.and kind of change any of that or look.at that we again we just kind of you.know set the set point and then let the.pump run like it normally does there.the great.I'm gonna go ahead and turn back Andre.before I do that though I just want to.take a second and thank both Jessie and.Tyler for putting together a.presentation and taking the time to join.us today and do this yes both did a.fantastic job thank you for your help.okay Andre I'm going to turn it back to.you so you can close this out.thanks today and thanks thanks again.Jesse and Tyler and for all the.participants for all your great.questions so as we mentioned at the.beginning you should be receiving a.short survey in your email it was in.about 15 minutes of the conclusion of.this webinar and by completing that you.can request continuing education credit.if you don't receive the survey please.reach out to my calling and thank you.again and we look forward to seeing you.at the next webinar in November thank.you.

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