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boom what's up everyone welcome to.simulation I'm your host on sakyo and we.are still on site at the American.Anthropological Association Annual.Meeting we are now blessed to be sitting.down with dr. Graham press hello there.how you doing man I'm great how are you.thanks for coming on to the show thanks.so much for having me it's a pleasure.greatly appreciate it really excited to.be talking about what you care about.let's give a background on Graham Graham.is a PhD candidate at the University of.Washington he's working on the vehicle.residency project which we will be.unpacking tons of nuance really excited.about that and he's executive director.and co-founder at we count org check out.the link in the bio we'll be talking.about that as well it's a system that.helps communities request and donate.items for people in need.that need social services and it helps.with assisting homeless get off the.streets.Graham is also a National Science.Foundation graduate research fellow and.he also has a lot of very interesting.thoughts about applying practice.practical thinking to anthropology and.just in general I'm really excited to.break down your your your what you're.focused on right right now what you care.about but even before we get to that.let's talk about you and how you even.got here so who are you as a kid and how.did you get interested in anthropology.well let's see so I was a you know I I.grew up in that kind of you know.upper-middle class American suburbs here.actually in San Jose and I you know by.the time I was a as a youth I had.traveled a lot with my parents around.the country in an RV and my grandparents.were retiree snowbirds and and so you.know doing those frugal family trips you.know whatever we could was often in a.vehicle and then and then as I grew.older and became a punk rocker and sort.of often a kind of a contrarian with my.community around me I didn't feel like I.fit in a lot and so I you know I started.you know not doing as well in school.ended up failing out of high school.and actually became homeless at the age.of 15 lived on the streets of San Jose.Berkeley in San Francisco in parks and.under bridges and in vehicles if I was.lucky in a girlfriend's vehicle the time.or in the back of punk rock clubs where.I worked security often and and so I did.that's so I had experienced homelessness.and then and a after several months a.person at a community meal offered me a.quarter to help me to contact my parents.and that was the catalyst that helped me.to really you know connect with my.society and my future I was able to.retake my classes graduate from high.school but I had my son at 18 even even.after that and and wasn't you know able.to go to college or anything so I'm.actually sort of a late bloomer in a lot.of this I a lot of my work is based upon.real world applications because it's the.life I lived I having a son at 18 I.spent years in social service offices on.welfare getting medical coupons for the.birth of him or son and housing coupons.to keep housed and sheltered and I sort.of learned what it was like to stand in.lines waiting to get the assistance that.you need so desperately to survive and.so when it came to when I had the.opportunity to go to school myself in my.30s I was able to transfer into the.University of Washington I worked with.Jason de Leon who I believe you spoke.with earlier when as an undergraduate.and was able to actually go to field.school with him during the undocumented.migration project that was in 2010 so it.was early on in the in the project I.think was the second year of the field.school and when I came back from that.field school I was rip raring to go I.was you know really impassioned I knew I.wanted to do important work that was.compelling it was meaningful and that.for me had a deeper connection much like.Jason's work is with him and and so I I.had actually been bartending by this.point in community in Seattle known as.Ballard which is in North Seattle and.it's a traditionally blue-collar sort of.fishing and shipwright industry place.and I knew a lot of people who are.living in their vans and their RVs and.who you know I had had was serving in my.bar and they were you know I'd see them.sitting on the other side of.our day after day night after night and.I'd say you know and and then come to.learn that they lived in their vehicle.and it really challenged my own.preconceived notions around homelessness.based on my own experiences and what I.had seen em around me this was 20 years.later after I had experienced.homelessness so I had developed a lot of.the biases that many people have around.homelessness and and and I think that it.it was that challenging of my own.notions that pushed me to get into this.work so I started to get into vehicle.residency and distend and and research.be a Bruin see we could talk a little.bit more about that momentarily but uh.yeah that's that's pretty much how we.got there whoa.so it's crazy that you had a experience.yourself at fifteen of having to figure.out streets street life because that in.itself is a mmm that makes a man real.quick it I don't even know I you know I.would say there's a certain amount of.Arrested Development that comes from it.to you know to be not as I see a lot of.the world through my fifteen-year-old.eyes still and it's you know it's.difficult because it does I think it's.experiencing highly traumatic life.firsthand and secondarily that you see.when you're on the streets not just you.know from the experiences that you have.yourself but what you see around you.really it does have a lasting effect and.I think that for myself and many of the.people who I know who have also Beck's.perience homelessness it often leaves.this deeper kind of sense of passion.towards social and equality towards.under you know thinking about what it.means around identity and about.identities that are positioned on top of.people about you know when you spend.enough time on a street corner asking.for change and you see hundreds and.thousands of people walking by trying to.ignore you.it really does I think force a different.perspective on what it means to be a.member of our society to occupy public.space and to try to get by you know.and so I mean really I.that's that for me that was I think I'm.there I consider myself very privileged.for being able to have that experience.because it allows me to think about.those things at that sort of more.problematic way I can test the notion.even of what it means to be homeless you.know and and and that kind of they.versus we you know and I the way that I.see I've come to see this these these.experiences and social suffering is that.they are social experiences that things.that we all participate in that we all.experience we all feel from the cost of.that person the cost of the social.services from that person the cost of.reintegrating that person in society the.cost of the loss of productivity that.ultimately I see that for myself the.reason why I'm able to do this work was.because somebody reached out and offered.me a quarter and that small catalyst.that helped to make my change which is.part of the reason why we developed we.count as well is what brought my.potential back to the table and I think.about all the potential that we leave.off the table when we don't address how.we can help stabilize our neighbors and.how we can provide spaces for people to.connect with you know what's going to.help them to to be active parts of our.society.you have the quarter as a catalyst for.you to figure things out in your life is.crazy that the smallest sort of tiniest.butterfly effects kids exactly we can go.like that and then also when you're.talking about the the the the we the we.versus that them were the vase the us.versus the vase this the this is.something that we've had the chance to.talk about a little bit and even you.know before we get into the nuance of.the vehicle residency project just.speaking on that when you're on a when.you're on a corner and you're asking for.assistance you mentioned this earlier.there's a lot of these preconceived.beliefs and notions about what the.person who the person is why they're.there all this kind of stuff but.we've had the chance to sit down with.people on her show that lived on the.streets or we've talked to them on the.streets as well and a lot of times.they've had serious traumatic family.experiences that have led them to the.point yeah where their parents are.addicts or their parents aren't there.they live in multiple dozens of foster.homes along the way then they then.they're on the streets and that's where.they find family that's where they find.love.um and so why don't you tell us a bit.more about the we versus them thing as.well as the some of these preconceived.notions yeah you know I so I really like.Jason had mentioned in one of the panels.he was talking about about this idea a.Jason de Leon had mentioned as about.this this idea that when we talk about.migrant studies which is similar in the.work that I do that there's this this.this tendency to have to build up the.migrant as a human being and why don't.we just start with the assumption that.this is a human being and I tend to go.that route instead of saying let's show.that this person who's experiencing.homelessness is a real person why don't.we start by understanding that we're all.people and that we all make similar.choices based upon the options that we.see before us that there are many forces.of displacement of destabilization of.unsettlement right that that they can be.from our families they can be historical.economic forces they can be based on our.skin tone or a gender we call the.structural violence right all these.different ways that have these implicit.and explicit constraints on our ability.to produce healthy lives and and and I.think that the way that I like to think.about it is that if if we are all making.choices that we that are we perceive as.optimum within our environment of.options then that's very humanizing.right because why the person is sleeping.on the corner is a result of a response.to.environmental options which they.perceived before them right and that is.actually for me not only is it at base.humanizing because it is not they it is.we I'm a part of that environmental.option right that's where I when I talk.about the social suffering as a social.experience but it also I think is a way.that is empowering in that as a social.scientist and someone who's attempting a.sense of praxis of applying this and.just into practice is that I can affect.an environment right I can introduce new.options or work with policymakers to.affect the way options are provided to.people the choice is agentic right the.person is going to make this choice as.that as their own agent but we can offer.options that are more healthy and more.beneficial right and so I see that like.that seeing it in this way opens up new.opportunities to do good work right to.do transformative work and that by.limiting ourselves to this understanding.of they versus we right it allows us to.sort of offset that responsibility that.guilt that neoliberalism of saying this.person didn't play the game right so.it's their fault right when the reality.is we're all part of the game that one.of the things I often say is that you.know with there's this old saying of.we're all one paycheck away right from.homelessness I like to say no we're not.which the paycheck you get right now.right it is that it is the fact that we.are able to be successful and be able to.be healthy and live in the homes that we.have but not everybody has access to.that same level of level of resources.our paychecks are part of what makes our.lives great but they're not shared by.that other person out there too and so.it is the success that we have that has.a flip side of people who have have-nots.who have become have-nots and how do we.help to equalize that within our society.so that we can bring those people to the.table so that so that not only is that.that productivity from that person the.tax base from that person but truly that.those that intellectual work can be.brought back to the table and we can.actually grow as a as a human of the.human species from engaging all of us.yeah it's a really important way to look.at it it's it's looking at it from a the.systems thinking perspective or a.cybernetic perspective of that I am I am.Who I am and I have had the access to.what I've had and that has also had an.impact on what other people have access.to and what they have and so ok so walk.us through what happened from from from.going out into the field Jason de Lyonne.- onto realizing that you want to do the.vehicle residency project and yeah start.doing the work yeah so I so after.returning from the field with Jason like.I said I was rip-roarin and ready to go.and I knew I wanted to do work that was.compelling and meaningful excuse me and.and so I actually I purchased an RV and.I started actually living on the streets.of Seattle rather naively and I would do.it differently and if I was to do it.again mainly because one of the things I.quickly realized was that my experiences.were not the same as people who are.living on the street I had a home to.return to.and also that limited my understanding.of the vehicle as a home because since I.had this other place I called home the.vehicle was much more of a temporary.space whereas for you know people who.are living in the vehicle it was home.and that was really a significant.difference and it was one of the kind of.first insights into this whole sort of.assemblage of vehicle residency another.thing really quickly though that I did.see that was helpful was that I saw that.there was this tremendous amount of law.enforcement that was being applied that.not only of course you know the tickets.and the warnings you gotta move some.every 72 hours but that there was.signage everywhere I went that was.saying you can't park here and and it.was signage that that particularly.related to people living in vehicles so.I was finding that in these industrial.zones where that there was laws in.Seattle that I could only park my Rd in.industrial zones this is a really common.law that you can only park vehicles that.are over say 80 inches wide at the wheel.base in industrial zones.because you don't want those parking in.in residential streets for emergency.vehicles coming out in the middle of the.night right so you can only park those.vehicles industrial zones in the.nighttime right so between midnight and.5:00 a.m. I had to park my RV in.industrial zones just like every other.person in an RV and then in those zones.I saw the placement of no parking 2:00.to 5:00 a.m. signs right which you go.why do you where's the street sweeping.you know at 3:00 a.m. in the industrial.zone I mean it's just it's not there.those signs were put specifically to.remove vehicle residents from public.space and that that actually is what.what started the what drove my the.archaeological aspect of my research for.the the ethem archaeological aspect in.that I did three years of settlement.mapping and actually mapped where people.were parking vehicles and RVs trucks.fans and and cars on the streets and.correlating that with zoning parking.laws resources and showing how these.settlement patterns were being driven by.the constrained options that were.available within their environment and.how then that created densities within.the settlement patterns over time which.then led to further community complaints.which led to more no parking two to five.and signs which reduced the amount of.space and created more density right and.so I produced a report so during this.time I I worked for with Seattle.University leading the vehicle residency.research program and conducted two years.of that mapping with that program one.year as my undergraduate at University.of Washington for my honors thesis in.vehicle residency and and then presented.that report to the City of Seattle.helped to to lobby for the the creation.of a safe parking program that would.provide off street parking for people.living in vehicles i wrote the grant for.that program and we ended up start.developing in seattle back in 2012-2013.and i applied to become the outreach.provider for that program so that I.could continue my research through it.and from 2000 I think was 2013 2015 I.was the.the outreach specialist as it was called.for all vehicle residents in Seattle so.during that time for those two years I.worked at about 1500 people who were.living in vehicles all across the city.in Seattle I should probably say the.numbers what what we're looking at so in.Seattle there are roughly 12,000 people.who are experiencing homelessness about.half of those people are in some form of.emergency transitional or permanent.shelter so about 6,000 or in that about.the other the other 6,000 are in are on.the streets what are counted as.unsheltered of that unsheltered.population 53% are living in vehicles so.of the people on the street over half.are living in a car truck van or RV it's.3,300 people roughly across King County.and and yet there are virtually no.parking spaces for people in those.programs in any kind of emergency.services so that's why we developed the.safe parking program and and then I did.this research to help to kind of get a.better understanding of what the.on-the-ground experiences were for.people again because I knew that I there.was only so much I could get as sort of.audio ethnographic research from my own.occupation of the RV and so I wanted to.know more about what people were really.experiencing in their own lives so so.for two years I did that outreach work.afterwards I worked for the Social.Service oversight agency that's the HUD.mandated continuum of care oversight.agency as they're called which is called.haul home and I worked with them for two.years on their executive and governing.board and as chair of their policy.committee looking at how social service.policy and social services and policy.was being developed around vehicle.residency and I saw that well there was.abysmal Ino policies being developed I.shouldn't laugh it's it was horrible.there were almost no recognition of the.vehicle as a home and and because of.that because of this sort of what I have.come to term a nomadic pathology a view.of nomadic shelters as inherently sick.and wrong as diseased disease producing.an immoral that there's this criminality.and.and and filth or drug addiction all.these sorts of things that are built.into this that because we have that.settled societies have this tendency to.view these nomadic shelters this way.that they could not be viewed as.acceptable or appropriate and so.incorporating them into official.state-run emergency systems was almost.impossible and so that's what a lot of.my research has come to focus on is how.the this nomadic pathology dis.affiliates people from their society and.how it opens them to this.criminalization that is justified.because we see it as they shouldn't be.living in that vehicle in the first.place right and and for many people.there's this very important tension.between the vehicle as home and this.label of homelessness right and that the.the the label of homeless is a negative.identifier label that presents this.impossible barrier to overcome of how do.you become honed when you are homeless.by definition right and so for people.who are living in their vehicles who see.it as home not only does that not match.their identity but when social services.come in that are fourth quote the.homeless they say that's not me I don't.need your help so again you've got this.double problem of not only do you have.53% of the population who don't actually.have a parking space to connect into.services but they may not even want the.services offered because the way that.we're calling those services doesn't.match their identity right and this is.the kind of thing where simple changing.and our understanding of this can have a.massive effect right because.understanding that this is a that this.vehicle is an adaptive sheltering.strategy that this person is is using.this vehicle as what they perceive as.optimal shelter among a limited variety.of options right that these vehicles.have become affordable housing and that.in that case there's this this major.problem of what does that mean as more.and more people move into these vehicles.as affordable housing I think we'll get.to that more in a bit.but yeah that's not what I call the.nomadic turn Wow.so what a crazy kick-off to talking.about the vehicle residency project.because the way that the way that you're.talking about the systems that are in.place it just reminds me of our.conversations that we've had with people.and I so hard to even use the word.homeless again good and figure it out.the right nomenclature I may have heard.you say people experiencing homelessness.people experiencing homelessness better.I bet it is it's a it's an adjective.right homelessness is an adjective it's.not a label right we use it as an.identity as a noun right but the reality.is is that it's it's like I compared it.to driving a car when you're driving a.car you're a driver when you're not.driving a car you're not a driver that's.a good way to be so so people.experiencing homelessness exactly.because again these these new ways of.speaking about it are really important.especially in getting people the.services that they need.so this reminds me of our conversations.we've had with people who are.experiencing homelessness because.they're teaching us about all of the.aspects to the system that are causing.them the struggle of trying to get off.of the streets they are trying to get.off but there are so many variables that.are pressing them and you started.listing these these variables like if.you have more than an 80 inch wheelbase.then you can't park 12:00 to 5:00 but.then where you have to go to parked off.no parking from 2:00 to 5:00 a.m. so now.you also started kind of teaching us.that you know out of the 12,000 homeless.in Seattle people without homes in.Seattle that there are 6,000 of them in.sheltered residences and whatnot and.then there's six thousand that are that.are that are on the streets and 3,300 of.them are in vehicle residents so over.53%.of the ones on the streets are in.vehicles and there's no place for them.to actually to park their the vehicle.that they live in and so now you've made.this despair.that for them to actually be able to.park and and have their vehicle as their.residency in these in in spaces to.facilitate the proper because there is.no them this is all us and so we have to.figure that out and now as you're as you.know as you were speaking about that I.was thinking about New York and LA and.San Francisco and Chicago and all these.other places that have equivalent.numbers if not more than 12,000 people.living on the streets and that's a lot.of societal systemic change that I think.you are pioneering so okay so now now as.you're as you're doing this research you.you you went you had you had a thousand.five hundred people that you were.talking to on a daily basis about what.was going on in their lives what's up.there was a pool of fifteen hundred.people that I would be working with over.those two years but yeah pool of fifteen.hundred people that you were working.with over those two years talking to.learning about their diverse stories and.life trajectories and so now what were.you learning about their experiences.that was like holy crap we have to.change some of the things in our city.you know I would say that that that the.the main takeaways that I got that I.think we're really sort of revelatory.were first off and they shouldn't be I.should say they should not be revelatory.but they were for me and I and I hope.that they can be for others as well that.first off that these were people who.were displaced from their own.communities.that these weren't people who had come.to the city as a way to get their.resources that by and large the vast.majority of the people that I was.meeting not just people living in.vehicles also people in tents but.definitely among the people were in.vehicles were people that were from.Seattle or the surrounding area that.were using their vehicles as a way to.maintain their connections to their.familiar medical social.service systems right and that they used.these vehicles again as this affordable.housing to maintain this connection to.the city right and that what had.happened was that the over the previous.decades there had been a labor market.and technology shift in this in Seattle.which we experienced in San Francisco.and LA and other the main cities which.are experiencing the same problem or.same issue I should the challenge that.that there has been this labor market.shift and people who have the background.or the the privilege of education or.wealth to be able to move into that new.labor market of high tech and.information economy have been able to do.very well and been able to succeed in.that and this is where the it's our.paycheck now right but those who are.from the a blue-collar background or for.the many different reasons of structural.violence skin tone gender gender.identity even or and many more are.barred from getting into that new.economy and or from the educational.background to get into that economy or.employment background and so because of.that this shift has displaced this.population that people have the.gentrification the the gentrification.yeah that's when we look at it and it's.and but it's not just gentrification.it's I I always look at it at that.because when we think about it is.gentrification we respond with what we.need more affordable housing but I'd say.okay but affordable housing today is.unaffordable housing tomorrow if you.don't have a job yeah you could buy.would you call violence structural.impediments or the anthropologists call.it structural structural violence.provide social violence yeah and so that.structural violence is what holds people.back based on yes skin tones or it's the.isms.right you know the racism sexism you.know whatever you know ableism and that.that that the and it's it's really it's.the explicit and implicit biases that.that that are held that create.constraints on a pure person's ability.to have agency that is positive right.and often it constrains people to.choices.have negative outcomes right and so and.it's it's a it becomes a social.indicator of health right that.ultimately the person has there are.negative health outcomes that often.become from not being able to get into a.great job because of restrictions based.upon your skin tone for example so.displacement was a reoccurring yeah.theme that's right yeah so I had seen a.displacement occurring in Seattle and.people were were being they were unable.to as they were there was just large.rental base as the the rents were going.up because of the new economy people.were becoming addicted they were then.moving into their vehicles are moving.onto public streets often moving in the.street and then moving into a vehicle.because it was an optimum shelter and.and then because there was no place off.the street or in particular out of the.vehicle for a place to park the vehicle.and connect to emergency systems that.helped settle people and stabilize them.because there was no process to do that.this this this population just keeps.growing and growing and this is why.actually so even though we're at 53.percent this year vehicle residents are.53 percent of the unsheltered population.this year they have been actually 30 at.least thirty percent for the last ten.years and in the last ten years that.population because it's been rising I.should say they're thirty percent of the.unsheltered population in the last ten.years over that time the total vehicle.residency population has risen by three.hundred and eighty three percent so.we're talking about 2008 it was.something like around eight hundred.people and now it's 3,300 yeah and.that's been happening across major roads.that's right and that's was and that's.why I think that that that's the.takeaway here is that what we're seeing.is a response to internal displacement.and that again that people are turning.towards these vehicles as affordable.housing and which leads me to this.larger consideration sort of hypothesis.at the end of my dissertation of what.does that tell us about the nomadic turn.about this sort of this these individual.souls but the individual choices.becoming normalized into social trends.yeah right and and we even see this you.know obviously we.see at law in San Francisco I you know.there's a lot of RVs.in six guys shouldn't mention that as.part of my research I've done a I do a.critical discourse analysis where I look.at 500 articles about vehicle residency.all across the country for the last five.years looking at how this how we view.vehicle residency in our media and and.in particular about how much it's being.referred to as affordable housing and.how that trend is becoming more normal.in places like LA I'm not sure if you're.aware but they recently had to pass laws.where to restrict people from buying RVs.putting them on the street and renting.them as apartments because there were so.many people doing it and that is exactly.what I'm talking about right isn't that.what does it mean to our society to move.towards mobile housing as the new.version of shelter yeah right and there.are reasons why that's very pragmatic.right especially when you look at you.can move your house you can lose your.house and you look at things like that.you know these fires and in California.right now there's a lot of people right.now that have been displaced from these.fires that are living in their vehicles.and it makes perfect sense for them but.I think when you don't have to pay.fifteen hundred two thousand a month in.rent right but I think that we need to.take a step back and go back to why you.know looking at you know there is no.they we are we right that that the reef.we're all people and we're making.choices based upon the environment all.off the environmental options that we've.received before us then we need to look.at that person living in that vehicle.not as a good thing right we got to look.at it as this is the response to an.environmental set of options right and.that has possible benefits possible.detriment right it is not always just.progressive all right there's all this.you know march towards you know a future.of greatness right these things can be.good and bad and that and that that that.we need to see that vehicle as a.response to these larger social.environmental pressures that that may.have a larger destabilizing effect on.our society because we're honestly not.prepared for 3,000 RVs moving from city.to city yeah and you you're so.at the forefront of talking about this.in terms of it being a trend towards.mobile housing and you're also at the.forefront of talking about it in terms.of the it's all about us and not about.them type scenario because when you.think about it as a them type scenario.you're we're taking the blame and we're.moving it away from a society and we're.putting it onto the individuals that are.involved there but this is a this is a.direct effect of the economic and the.political pressures that we've that.we've created and that's why we see so.much displacement and towards this.mobile housing now within the mobile.housing there is a there's there is a.percentage of people that that have a.desire to be in a mobile housing there's.a percentage of people that are writers.or artists or full of philosophers or or.entrepreneurs in some ways that they.want to musicians they want themselves.to become with home instead of people.without home and so so then there's so.there's these categories of people that.are within the the people that are in.living in via and rest of vehicle.residences so that breakdown is also.really important to understand there are.actually people that are addicted to.really addictive drugs and also and that.that that desperately needs social.services to also assist in that sense so.that breakdown is also extremely.important to figure out and understand.and just hearing you talk about this.when I first heard you're talking about.this it's just so near and dear and.close to our hearts and in San Francisco.and our studios right on market and.seventh Street in downtown and so we.have a you know are we see so much right.there of.of not only people I'm living without a.home but also we see a lot of a vehicle.residents and we also see a lot of a lot.of the diversity of people living.without home like like I was just.describing that breakdown so what do you.what are your thoughts about that.breakdown of people and just give us.give us your thoughts about that.breakdown well I think you know I think.that I I would push back a little bit on.that I and and I would I would say that.it's not quite as hard and fast as that.and that and that we should getting back.to that whole there's no they we are all.we think that that people that that.there are many forces of displacement.they can be personal they can be social.they can be endemic there can be things.like you had a bad relationship with.your dad right so when I was homeless I.didn't get along with my family right I.ever came from a very privileged place.especially considering many other people.that I know and I was able to return to.that which is a tremendous sense of.privilege at the same time that what.moved me into that place of being.homeless was important for me important.for me enough to live on the streets.right and that was a force of.displacement now is it the same as other.forms of structural violence no there's.many different different reasons why.people get into this and I would add.that many of the many of the behaviors.that we that we observe among people who.are experiencing almost as such as drug.addiction or substance use as a whole.not only are they reflected throughout.our society and we don't ask the same.questions of the person who's in the.condo above the person who sit on the.street which is important right you know.but those just like that person in the.condo the people people use substances.as ways to manage and mitigate medicate.their traumas and you find when you work.with people experiencing homelessness.that many people experiencing almost.this did not use those substances before.they became homeless and they began.using those substances ways to mitigate.the traumas.experiencing so you know how do you go.to sleep at 3:00 a.m. when it's freezing.out while drinking yourself into.oblivion it's a lot easier okay how do.you stay up all nights with your stuff.because you're afraid of it well taking.a couple hits of something to stay up.all night is a good way to do it and and.that sort of behavior is done as a.response to the environment which again.what happens when you change the.environment all right so this is why.things like you know what I'm talking.about isn't it's not that like it's not.controversial this is this is what the.housing first model is based on this is.actually what HUD you know the the.Department of Housing and Urban.Development is is focused on right now.is trying to find ways to get people.into safe spaces immediately so then we.can remove them from the environmental.traumas that they experience on a daily.and nightly basis and start to actually.provide that stability that offers them.long-term development with with the.immediate relief and that's really what.I found in this research ultimately is.what do we need to do we need to look at.this as a two pronged issue and we.always focus on one or the other.and it's not that it has to be both.relief and development really it's a.relief portion is the integration of the.traumas in ways that are preventative of.people without homes I would say the.relief portion is providing a relief.from the trauma now yeah really.completely not immediately so that way.there is no trajectory that sends people.to being without home yeah or at least.at least helps it at least removes them.from the the the continuation of traumas.that they're currently experience.exactly so at least we can we can in a.sense you can never completely cease it.because a lot of trauma becomes.internalized but you can at least remove.people from the environmental traumas.that are experiencing around them yes.and because as I'm learning about this.more from you I'm seeing it as similar.to the pathologies that occur within the.body we've had so many brilliant.anti-aging scientists that we've sat.down with and whenever we talked to them.it's all about identifying the.pathologies before they start and then.that's how you can like tweak the body.over time to get healthy and since the.same exact thing is you're starting to.see.that this kid is having significant.trauma with his father and their there.is about to be a 15 year old on the.streets how can we intervene and prevent.that 15 year old from entering that.situation and so and so and so you also.make these points about substance.addictions they don't happen when.they're living in a home this happens.when you're trying to protect your stuff.or when you're trying to deal with the.freezing cold temperatures these.different situations so that's okay so.and then so then there's the there's the.relief and then there's the long term.development long term so then the.development is okay so then there's a.situation that we have right now with.vehicle residency's so how do you.develop a current place for vehicle.residences to go to but also develop a.city like Amazon's hq2 moving into Long.Island City and it's moving into Crystal.City.um in Virginia and so when you're when.you're looking at these two these two.cities that are in Nashville as well.where Amazon's moving into that that.there needs to be some sort of a a.promise a community promise of hey we.know that we're bringing so much.economic opportunity and development to.these areas and that's extremely.important for your cities but also we.know that we're gonna be causing.displacement and because we know we're.gonna cause displacement we're gonna do.a bunch of preventative measures like we.were talking about earlier that are.going to prevent that displacement from.occurring so that might be the.development that you're talking about.where you develop affordable housing.worth whatever what would well so so I.think of that when I talk about really.for development I'm talking about I.think I'm in a little bit different way.because I'm talking about it with people.who are currently experiencing.displacement the issue of Amazon is is.near and dear to my heart as someone.from Seattle doing research in Seattle.who moved to Seattle in 96 and when.Amazon before they really became big and.I worked in the.com boom and bust.alongside when Amazon was growing up as.well so.you know I know a lot of people work at.Amazon I've worked with Amazon many.times in the corporate and my nonprofit.does as well and so a lot of that is.what informs that idea of it's our.paycheck now right that that that.economic success we shouldn't demonize.that economic success because there's.obviously a lot of value that can come.along with it I think everybody should.pay their fair tariffs sir fair share of.taxes and be able to support our economy.as a whole but that's kind of a.different discussion but when it when it.comes to what those forces what forces a.company like Amazon can bring to bear in.terms of displacement on new cities I.saw it in Seattle I saw it for the last.20 years and I do know a pretty good.idea of what these other cities are.gonna be seeing and it is gonna be.massive displacement most like I.shouldn't say that there's the the the.history that we saw in Seattle tends to.show that there's a good chance that.you're gonna see similar things right.and then you're gonna see forces of.displacement because of again this.increased income base which then rises.drives up housing cost because of course.if you have the opportunity to charge.more you're gonna charge more of your.landlord and then the people who do not.have access to those jobs at Amazon or.the industries that surround Amazon.which you'll see pop up as well like we.did in Seattle are going to be priced.out of their market and that I think.that much like what we need to do in.Seattle we need to that that Amazon if.you want to look at how they're going to.protect against that displacement how.they can help to ensure that they won't.be bringing in structural violence into.these communities is that they need to.incorporate those communities into that.success and it's more than just bringing.in these jobs because they bring in the.jobs and they bring in the people to.fill those jobs they need to target the.communities themselves to fill those.jobs and that's why a lot of the work.that I do now with I am a member of the.I was appointed a couple months ago to.the mayor of Seattle's innovation.Advisory Council and a lot of the work.that I'm doing there is pushing towards.a an integration of.rapid rehousing of like the programs.that provide subsidized housing for up.to a year along with Europe training.programs at these top 10% of our.employers so that what we can actually.do is is ways to integrate people who.have been displaced into the businesses.that are causing the displacement right.because that's actually that's how we.solve this problem of affordable housing.it's not affordable if you don't have a.job right we need to get people the jobs.but you also need the immediate relief.so that's relief and development right.get a house right now and provide people.the skill set yes to be able to afford.that house a year from now and that.right there is not new that's the New.Deal I was just about so there there.were there were three million people two.million I did them I checked you checked.I check us to it okay no you know so so.there was a period of time where there.right now we're looking at about 350 or.400 thousand homeless people in the.United States experiencing almost sorry.we're trying to change the new picture.yes so for people experiencing.homelessness 80 years ago and this was.around 1935 and the New Deal was tell us.about how that took two million people.right and helped those people without.homes right stabilized yeah yeah and.settle in their communities yes really.the point settle into the community is.that uh I don't even take a step back if.you look at where that population came.from it was originally it was from.forces of displacement that go all the.way back to the founding of the United.States I mean it was some of the some of.these people were indigenous populations.originally some of them were poor whites.poor non-whites poor people of all.different backgrounds who have been.displaced who faced these similar issues.of evictions of rental costs and and.became this this basic massive poor.underclass of our society and.particularly the civil war was there was.very distress upon this this grew the.the destruction of the lands of the.farms people's you know people would go.off to war and their bean.we're to return to north and south and.so at the end of the Civil War this.little brief history those soldiers were.brought back to New York so that they.could be cleared out through the train.lines the new train line since they.brought everybody back to say ok you're.no longer north and south we're back.together we're gonna clear you out from.being a soldier and send you home they.put them on railroads out of Hoboken and.those became the hobos and that's.actually where that term comes from.originally is from these hobo armies.that were initially immobilized as it.responds.a clearance of soldiers from the Civil.War and those soldiers had no homes to.return Tuesday started on the road and.they started looking for jobs where they.could and again the same time you had a.technological shift of this turn towards.industrialized farming right and so as.we have this move towards industrialized.farming a lot of the farms that were.subsistence farms that had been before.we're getting brought up in a larger.plantations with you know in the south.they were you know using sharecropping.and in the north and in the West we had.these large you know fields and.everything those all of that was then.was the the hobo became this workforce.that were moving across the country as.the labor market shifted into.industrialized mining and industrialized.timber that force moved with it to.become the workforce that moved into the.West right and into places like Seattle.where they work to become part of the.the lumber industry and and James.Bradley who did a lot of this work wrote.his book you owe yourself a dorama draw.your self a drunk about tramps talks a.lot about that about how this sort of.this rise of this this population and.then what happened was is that by the.the 1930s as you mentioned 1920s there.were around 2 million people who were.experiencing homelessness in this night.in the country the United States and.they were a you know colloquially called.the and hobo armies moving from.city to city and and what's interesting.is that the the initial response to that.to help to stabilize that group many of.us forget but it was actually called the.transient service and I think it's.important that with that that we you.know take a moment to think about what.that term means.because at that stage the social service.providers saw that what was needed was.stability was settlement that there was.this movement this this mobility this.migration of people that was the issue.right and that if people could be.settled in the place where they were.then they could be revived that.development that's the relief and the.development and so at that time there.was this growth of these places called.Hoovervilles which we've all probably.heard of and we often see these pictures.of these places as these massive sources.of urban blight the one in Seattle is.one of the most famous there's this real.famous picture of the the Seattle.Hooverville and but what we don't know.or we've forgotten is that those were.places of settlement that those were.places where people were finally allowed.to settle down and the government came.in with social services and brought in.educational programs child care programs.job retraining programs and that those.were what became eventually the New Deal.with its rights and wrongs I viously.freely admit that they're not New Deal.is by no means perfect and in enforced.its own systems of structural violence.and with redlining and and other very.problematic things but one of the things.that it definitely did right was that it.it said that what we needed to do was to.not only provide these people with a.space where they could be now but we.need to provide them with the skills to.build out the economy to build out their.new cities so we employ settlement and.skills settlement skills relief and.development yeah and so what we did was.is that we employed that population to.build things like the Hoover Dam so that.suddenly now these people are laying.concrete and they're pipe fitting and.they're putting in electrical lines.well those skills is what they then used.once everything was done to ship that.person off to Ohio to build out their.own little town and right now we could.potentially use coders or designers or.corporations that's right and at a time.when we have record unemployment.specifically for that market because.much of the people who are on who are.unemployed but have fallen off that.roster as we know which skews our.unemployment numbers those are people.who don't necessarily have access to get.into that high tech jobs in the high.tech jobs we have record on employment.we need more people in those jobs those.industries are hiring like bad yeah and.they're looking for people that they can.help to sort of mold into the positions.that they that they're looking for.absolutely and we have this population.who desperately want to settle down who.want a safe place to be want to fit in.what there's there our society right and.and really see this as home that this is.still their home and yet they're being.moved out from their home own homes.because these new industries have come.in so going back to the Amazon.discussion right that this is what.Amazon I in my opinion needs to do to.help to address that in places in New.York and in DC is in Crystal City is.that we need to first off incorporate.the people who do not historically have.the access to those jobs into the hiring.practices to get them into those jobs.that's first off how we a stress is on a.structural level right and then for the.people who will become displaced we need.to actually funnel that population.directly into those jobs as well so I.think that it needs to be sort of.twofold that there needs to be an.initial approach of how do we hire local.populations to work at these incoming.industries yeah so we don't displace.them yeah and then if there is.displacement which often there is and we.see that we need to specifically focus.our social services to hiring people.into those programs and we have these.services already I mean it's work force.I mean it's it's labor force I mean.these systems and the private and public.market the federal government's been.running job retraining systems for.decades right and and we you know it's.it's not a radical idea you know it's a.it's it's a matter of believing that.there is not a deserving and undeserving.population that we are all we and that.by supporting that group that we are.helping our total society and that not.that that that person just needs to be.pushed away and we need to focus on the.good ones right and that's really what.we seem to have been doing and it's.causing a lot of a lot of.destabilization yeah yeah.the.the vision of seeing tech giant using.its abilities resources to bring people.that are without a home in for with.social workers and with coders to.retrain I think can happen within within.a year I do think that you very much so.could happen and I was just I was just.just envisioning what that would look.like and it was really cool to think.about but it's very very difficult to.repattern.someone's habits in their cognition to.desire to code or design or do ops it is.just it's not impossible it's just.difficult and so but it's but well I.would agree and I think that that that.machine this is I want to touch back on.your your initial question about sort of.the varieties of nomadism maybe we could.say right that sort of that idea of.wanderlust the person who inherently.driven towards moving and and displace.people who are who are migratory by the.imperatives of their environment as.sister Louise would say the I think that.that first off that that that by by.providing these skill sets you know the.person may not take that job at Amazon.but now they have that skill set to be.able to take it elsewhere.right so that's the same that's really.what the Hoover Dam was doing it was no.that was not about getting them to this.job but it was getting them this skill.string yeah right yeah so first off.there's a lot of potential even if the.person doesn't get hired in that one.thing but there's also this the in.studies of nomadism this is why a lot of.my research actually looks at this as a.version of nomadism and this idea of.what it means to set and to rise that.when people are pushed into movement by.these destabilizing forces of.displacement that have been going on for.thousands of years that when people are.mobilized.and Anna and Maine and and live within.these persistent consistent.destabilizing environments that say.you're not allowed here you got to keep.moving it's environmental pressures or.social pressures or economic pressures.but that that thing that says keep.moving along that that people Nomad eyes.right they normalize to this migratory.behavior because that's all they've come.to know right it becomes normative right.and and that versus the settlement and.skills well and I would say that that.these people were raised in a settled.society yes people are raised with the.sedentary ideals that I have and I'm.sure you do as well that that the.success that we can achieve in our lives.is based upon settled life right that.having a job having kids putting clothes.you know hosing your kids food on your.table having a good education all those.things are done by hat being settled.down right and then we did we teach.ourselves that's what Robby move a calls.to set interest to Gemma D right and.then what he says that the flip side of.that is this anti nomadism that says.that anything that's nomadic is bad.right and and so when a person becomes.nomad eyes and becomes used to being.sort of this being treated as a social.other as being pushed off on society.never really able to settle down.of course one would normalize that as.that's just how life is.because that's all you see everywhere.now the flip side of that is is that it.takes time to normalize it also takes.time to set in her eyes that being able.to wrap your head around what it means.to live a settled life it takes effort.and it takes work on the person involved.but also on people who are working with.them right and so I always like to think.of it like this Center ization comes.from giving someone a couch in a TV when.you put someone on the couch and put a.big-screen TV and they get to sit there.and watch that and after a while ago man.I really like watching this TV what do I.gotta do to have that TV well I got to.have a job gotta have a house that's.senator is Asian it's when the person.internalizes these ideas that they.want to have that settled life right.well if you only see the options.available around you that say you must.have a nomadic life that's all you ever.know that's what you see is right right.this is what I'm saying so it's about.augmenting the lens of both the settled.society to see that there is a nomadic.society that does not know that there is.a settled society and also to augment.the lens of the pneumatic society to say.that there is a settled society where.you can find more of a comfort and.stability and a potentially a meaning.from doing something fulfilling everyday.that is that isn't driven towards value.but I I think it's I think that it's.more of I like I like the way you put.that but I think that is more of a it's.about yeah I think that it's the work is.more on what we need to do with the.settled society it's more about you.telling the settled society that you.know this person doesn't want to be a.nomad mm-hmm yeah that's that's right.and on the other side the thing is is.that once that work allows to space for.that person who has been treated as a.nomad to settle down right and that.becomes that relief and development all.these other issues of wanderlust right.why doesn't the person want to settle.why don't they feel engaged in their.society right I mean why did Thoreau go.to Walden right right because you didn't.feel you needed to go somewhere else.right and didn't feel that this was.right in that place maybe that is that.it is that a migrant is that a homeless.person is that no it's a person who's.moving in their life to find new things.we all do that right so if you look at.why do we do that we can start to.understand this better if we look at the.you know the the trust fund kid who's.traveling across the country with the.surfboards in his RV or van hey that's.awesome man and and it but it's I don't.think there is a difference in that.that's vehicle residency that's.displacement it's a different force of.displacement just like my force that.drove me into homelessness was a.different force than many other people.experience right but but but by by kind.of splitting hairs over that.we we get lost in the weeds and we lose.the fact that it's about how do we find.ways to to settle people yeah you know.you settled ourselves this entire.section of our conversation has so much.for me to do with what is today's new.deal like a really powerful new version.to of what a new deal was because the.350 to 400 thousand people that are.currently without home a vast majority.of them would want a settled it's.exactly right and so we and they want to.settle in our cities to I think that's.an important piece is that we often.think about this as all but we have all.this fast farmland in the Midwest if we.just move people out that you go well.these are people who lived in the city.before why are we moving them from the.city why does somebody else get the.right to the city and and the people who.don't have this new economy accessing.the economy suddenly lose access to the.city that's not right that's right and I.want to touch on this because this is.something that you've been working on.now he co-founded it and the executive.director of we count so teach us about.we count so we count directly came from.this research and my experiences with.homelessness touching back on that story.of the person who gave me the quarter.you know I I was trying to think about.how do how do we empower the public to.be the provider of that quarter to all.the little needs the 15 year old me's.around the world right and or everybody.else not me but but that but that and I.saw myself in that in and and and how do.we use that as a way to connect people.to to become that catalyst to connect.people to services that can help to.settle them and and so we developed we.count it's a it's a website first off.it's not an app specifically so that.people can use it in libraries and.social service sites so that we could.have low barrier access low very entry.into that system we the system was.actually originally based upon the ideas.of Marcel Mauss from the gift so again.it's very deeply saturd in anthropology.oh gee in that one of the kind of well.there's lots of stuff that the mouse.talks about but one of the main sort of.takeaways is that there's three aspects.of giving that are sort of universal you.have a giver a receiver and then this.act of reciprocation and that if you.don't have that reciprocation you really.don't see a repetition of the act of.giving right because there needs to be.this thank you or maybe it's a grace.from God or maybe it's actual repayment.maybe I get a gift back there's all.these different ways that we do.reciprocation but if my ologies so yes.that all true you right you're exactly.you're not gonna want to be involved in.the in the future and so looking at that.it was okay so we we know what a giver.would be that would be the donor the.donating public we know what the.receiver would be that would be the.person requesting this item but how do.we do that as that reciprocation and so.we really we started the whole project.off actually the first six months before.we built anything or designed anything.we interviewed people experiencing.homelessness we interviewed social.service providers executive directors of.nonprofits public policy makers you know.Human Service Division people all.throughout Seattle to understand what.was needed and what we heard over and.over again was people saying look don't.reinvent the wheel don't create a new.service we got a lot of social services.and we don't have the funding from all.residents right.what we need is is a way to bring people.back to the well right to keep keep.people connected this idea of you know.you can lead a horse to water but you.can't make them drink well you leave the.horse to water enough times it's a good.chance it's gonna drink right and and.that's and I don't mean to talk about.people's other animals any sense but you.know that that the the analogy or.metaphor hole total net in that you know.we provide the carrot don't bring the.person to the water to drink at all I'll.send you a video afterwards so you can.you can use if you're interesting you.show yeah.but basically what the system does is a.person can request an item they actually.they request it from the Amazon.Marketplace so we again activate their.sense of agency and that they can.request really anything they want the.restrictions are you know no weapons no.combustible materials.or liquids no food because you can't.ship that through safely and there's.there's issues around that but beyond.that it's the the socks and on well.socks underwear tents backpacks it's all.items that are under $50 but it also.could be a hot plate it could be a cell.phone it could be a tablet PC right and.there are them there are tablets under.$50 and so in or boots right and so you.know we we opened it to to really allow.the person to search you can do it as a.search bar you search through the Amazon.Marketplace whatever you want and you'll.see this endless listing of these things.and it's the same information you'd see.on Amazon but you don't see the price.right and so the person go through and.they can choose what size boots what.color boots they then request that item.when they request the item the first.time we present them with what's called.a needs assessment questionnaire so it.asks questions like are you looking for.housing are you a veteran are you.traveling with kits it's all.confidential and it's securely held um.but so we ask these these basic.questions about what their needs might.be.and then we suggest social service.locations to pick up their item a.donation that actually match their needs.so then when you go on the site and.there's a one set kind of site of this.one version of the site or one side of.the site is for asking for items the.other side is for donating items and so.when you go into the donate side you see.the request from the person we use.avatars instead of pictures to avoid.implicit bias because some people don't.want to go you know give to people who.don't look like them common form of.implicit bias and so we do that person.can can tell a little bit about their.story a little bit about you know.provide a little bio about themselves.and then and why they're asking for this.item if they want to they don't have to.and then we have the item listed and so.then the donor can go in and purchase.the item directly through Amazon through.a secured payment processor and the item.is then shipped directly to the location.to connect the person with social.services and needs through and then we.provide the reciprocation at the end.where we send the donor information.about thank you for donating your.backpack - Jimmy you connected Jimmy.with housing and Veterans Services boom.yeah yeah.I love the.aspect of of anonymity but also of its.like it's a not it's in it's not fully.anonymous but it's just exactly it's.just it's just enough anonymous to not.have bias and then it's also getting.them what they need getting them to a.social service location and offering.them the resources that they need to.help them get off the find a home if.they so desire to and you're pulling.them to figure out the rights of service.protection to send them to it's really.powerful.check it out with links in the bio for.weekend or give it a look and we're.should we're in the middle of upgrading.the site right now so if you go there I.don't know when this will air but you.may see an under-construction but we're.actually talking with some major I.shouldn't mention the names but major.social media players which you are very.much familiar with about ways to.integrate this into their platform great.and actually so imagine you were on some.of these social media platforms and you.actually saw a request from your local.neighbors that's a $20 back right and.you can donate it right there through.that yeah that's fantastic and that's.gonna be huge for helping people and.then they have to go to a social.services center nearby to pick up the.backpack and and it against it.we've talked I've a couple times we use.this word this term push right of.pushing people into stuff and I really.like to think the other way pull yeah.that really what we're doing is is that.and this comes again from my research.with vehicle residents so often I see.people being pushed around communities.literally and that doesn't solve.anything it removes people's agency.removes people's resources like the.displacement and battle is its place as.a whole is the insult is the settlement.that's right that's exactly right and so.what we're trying to do is create polls.into our systems to help keep people.connected that's right and there's.another there's a there's there's this.word that we're all familiar with the.word is genius oh and we were talking.about this a couple nights ago and I.really enjoyed your definition of genius.one who inspires another two great.thought so it's not necessarily about an.end.that is a genius but it's more so about.that individual that knows how to.inspire others to this great source of.potential for themselves that's right.that's right the collective so yeah tell.us a bit about that because it's so cool.yeah so it's it's I mean it's it's it's.not my definition this is the original.Greek definition actually and so it's it.it's the the original weave the the.common kind of understanding of genius.as you said is it's generally some.single person who's very abnormally.gifted and intelligence maybe might be a.working definition I don't know but.something along those lines but it's.generally an individual who's very smart.in some way but but the Greek definition.was much more like a muse and that a.muse is a thing or a person or an entity.of some sort that inspires an artist.towards producing great art that is the.same thing for a genius and actually if.you look at the origin the word genus.genus means origins right and so it.becomes this origin right and so it is.it is genius is the that which inspires.people to producing these great thoughts.and I love I love that idea because it's.it's much more I think of it as a.democracy of intellect right the idea.that that we all have within us the the.potential towards great thought that it.is genius is our people like Jason de.Leon I I consider him a genius that you.know that in my experience is working.with Jason he absolutely inspired me to.think more deeply about my world and and.to be much more critical and and you.know I there is absolutely no way that I.would be doing my research had I not.learned that sense of critical thinking.and the skills that I learned from him.and other anthropologists who I.considered genius is a Rachel Chapman.Miriam Kahn.my spend Hawkinson my dissertation chair.Danny Hoffman and all these amazing.people I've been able to work with Holly.Barker who who show that anthropology.can be more than just theory it can be.practice which is the other thing we.were talking about yes yes leads us into.practice please yeah that we can bridge.this gap between sort of this.navel-gazing staring down our noses.anthropologists out the world and get to.a place where our work actually is.affecting the world around us because.it's anthropologists generally care.right that's why we get into this work.hopefully you know that we do it because.we're we're passionate about humanity.and about the world around us and why we.do the things we do and the history of.the discipline has really been much more.of this sort of extractive model of.going in and and finding these places to.pull the data out which then we make.into our careers and and that doesn't.sit very well with me and Anna and a lot.others too I think there are a lot of us.who come from places of various forms of.inequality and various forms of.privilege and look upon them reflexively.say you know what I've been there on.both sides and what can that and then.take that as a sense of responsibility.right for me I feel a responsibility.towards social structural change I I.feel like for that 15 year old me and.the 1,500 people that I worked with in.vehicles and my friends who are living.in vehicles now that if if I am not.doing work that is applying my theory to.actually create large-scale structural.change that I'm not doing enough work.right that's hard that's it's it's.probably it may be too much pressures.and I put up myself in that regard but.but it's powerful.it drives me you know and I and I'm not.alone in that you know I think that's.that's where that's where a lot of.entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley are.pushed towards actually executing.an idea rather than just talking about.that's right and and I think I know to.be honest I think that that's the future.of our of our discipline of anthropology.of the four field and of the four fields.of anthropology and as ethnologist I.think in particular archaeology has this.amazing potential yeah to to do this.work through analogy and and in ways.that that sort of twist our minds around.and make us think in whole new ways.about what we see in front of us what.we've seen all our lives one of my.favorite this is definitely gets into.practice but one of my favorite quotes.around this is from William Rath she who.was one of the founders of sort of or.one of the people who helped popularize.after archaeology through his garbology.work and encourage you to look more into.that's very interesting garbology.garbology actually he so so wrath wrath.she went out and looked at these federal.statistics and surveys that have been.being done for a hundred years about by.the FDA about and USDA about food.consumption patterns and and and trash.disposal patterns right and then he.would go in and excavate in that local.dump down to that year and find out what.people were actually disposing of and in.that way what he what he says is is that.our lives consists of these two versions.of reality of a mental reality of what.we think is happening and we're just so.sure that's real and then the material.reality which is the actual stuff that.we're depositing in the earth yes right.and that we can compare those and bring.those realities together to create this.more holistic version yes that is actual.reality there's truth and and and that's.what I try to do with my work of looking.at this mental reality of what does.vehicle residency look like how do we as.a society look at it and what are the.physical realities of actually living in.this conditions and how does that shape.by our social services and all this kind.of stuff and and that in my mind that's.that being able to tie a current reality.of persons living in a vehicle to past.realities of mobile sheltering things.like the Irish travelers the tinkers.Roma.quote gypsies as they're sometimes.referred and I would.mentioned to your audience it that is a.racial epithet which many people push.back at and encourage people not to use.the word gypsy and and and even on that.note it's often used for cultures all.across the world really and it's really.just about mobility it again gets back.to that nomadic pathology it's a way to.label someone as the nomad and it's the.outsider that that those sorts of things.that looking at that that in other.cultures and in our own past can tell us.about what we're seeing now that what.what my sense what my anthropology is.taught taught me so far and this.practice is that vehicle residency as we.see it if we compare it to past nomadic.cultures or so-called nomadic cultures.we see that that in this internal.disabled ization the internal.destabilization and this social other.ring creates these in these kind of.persistent environments of this of these.constraints can actually create.internally separated cultures so that.these cultures become distinct from the.their neighbors around them because.they're so socially isolated yeah that.they're just constantly pushed out and.the Irish travelers are a great example.for five hundred years this was pushed.and pushed and pushed until actually.last year they I don't know if you're.familiar this but there was a they had a.genetic test done that showed that that.they were able to officially show that.they were genetically distinct from the.rest Irish people even though they were.descended from them all right so that's.kind of interesting to think about like.that that 500 years of socialized social.isolation and intermarriage because of.that social isolation of course they.created this you know arguably.genetically distinct population and and.I threw analogy look at that and say.what does that tell us about what we're.seeing right now right that what we are.seeing right now I believe is that.initial dispossession point it's that.origin story of how the Irish travelers.became the travelers right it is that.it's evictions it's changes in labor.markets it's people being unable to.afford the ability to stay in the city.and then they become displaced and live.on the sides of the roads right and then.the technology.shift and they move from being a tent.into a vehicle because it's a lot better.option right and that's what we're.seeing now and and and it's I think that.it's something that again from at that.practice look that that thinking about.what that that may tell us about our.lived reality is is something that we.should be really concerned about as a.society I you know there's this idea.that that nomadic nomadic behaviors are.an existential threat to settled life.and I think there's some truth in that.in that that nomadic life needs this.open non bordered world so they can move.so people can move throughout that world.to collect the resources they need when.they need them because because it's a.non extractive form it's it's what's.what and it totally cause enough you're.called a color of productive form that.he said that it was it was that nomadism.is is saying there's not food here so I.got to go over there to produce it right.to find new forms whereas the settled.world extracts it from that thing rain.so so if we are living in this subtle.world of this extractive form and people.are moving towards this nomadic form.that means that you have a group of.people that no longer see borders that.people that move freely places to be.able to get move have to move widely to.be able to get the resources they need.and become even more further.destabilized by that and if we actually.you know sort of operationalize that.what does that mean in reality to now.you're talking you know three thousand.RVs moving city to city right our.country is not prepared for that the.United States doesn't have the.infrastructure we don't have the social.services developed for that and arguably.I would say that you know that that as.I've already shown in my research so far.that sort of thing perpetuates itself.and becomes more and more more and if we.go down that route its leads to further.instability so this is where I really.think we need to.head that off at the pass we need to.really focus on how can we find ways to.settle this population to stabilize this.population before we are looking at this.new American traveler you know and yeah.yeah that was such a good synthesis of.what we talked about in your research I.feel very enlightened about what's going.on in the world and especially in the.United States I feel very enlightened.about what's happened in throughout the.history of nomadic people and I feel as.though it is in some ways that is it's a.desperate time that and we need to put.the measures together to prevent further.displacement and to put together the the.relief and development settlement skills.that are needed to to solve this and and.get drop drop to them in the day and get.to the we in the US yeah yeah it's it's.such a pleasure talking to you about all.this Graham and if I could enter a.positive note on that I think that there.that there is a positivity in all this I.think that that we need that we can see.that these changes what is a learning.experience and there's things that we.can take from this but that even beyond.that I really love this idea of creative.destruction of make you know doing rid.of getting rid of what's not working to.make space you use those resources to.build up what is working I don't know if.you know that the story of 3m right of.them using that every year they go and.they take 15% of their products off the.line right and they take no matter what.they take 15% and they take all that.money and they put it an RD to build up.what is working even better mmm right.and I like to think of that these sorts.of moments of crisis that we experience.of change are opportunities for us to.reimagine the future right these are.breaking points where we actually have.an opportunity to break from the past to.say you know we are not cursed to relive.the lives of our ancestors we are not we.do not need to build futures on our Rand.father's bones right we can build a new.reality and we can learn from these.things to have a world that is more.equitable.that that that that has processes that.don't create these inequalities imagine.if we took that 3m model and we applied.it to everything in life to 15% of.things that aren't working in.civilization and invest that into.fifteen percent into R&D for what is.working in civilization and keep them.moving the ball for a better yeah I.think we do a good amount of that right.now but but we definitely need to think.about that more often as as an integral.part of of what we do because I think.there is a tremendous amount of.complacency at times the way things are.and I think it's very interesting that.entrepreneurs or artists or people that.are just basically unsatisfied with the.current paradigm of the world are the.ones that go like nah we got to change.that.and they are the ones that go into some.build it and do it and that's why we.love talking to people like you to.people that are building the future and.talking about the important research.that you're doing in and you know I.really recommend everybody to take a.look at Graham's work check it out in.the bio also check out we count org much.love everyone thank you so much for.tuning in Graham thanks for joining us.on the show thank you so much super fun.it was awesome yeah really great meeting.I've loved our conversations me too yeah.I'm so happy with Knights go absolutely.and everyone check out the work also.give us your comments we'd love to hear.from you in the comments below let us.know what you think about the episode go.and do your own investigations into.vehicle resident season engine people.that are without home and go and talk to.them go check out our episodes that.we've done on street life the foreign.street smarts going to check out those.episodes and see what we're talking.about and talk with the service.providers and how you can help them yeah.I talked to service providers how you.can help them pass a little past some of.your time actually going in volunteering.time to to these efforts to humanize.ourselves and also go and manifest your.dreams into the world build the future.thanks to triple-a the American.Anthropological Association is annual.meeting this has been super fun down in.San Jose thanks everyone and much love.see you soon peace that's great Wow man.love it yeah really a lot of fun that.

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