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G9039 Application For Agency Appointment Demand Assistance

good afternoon to everyone and welcome.to this webinar where we will discuss.the agency appointment agreement that.was recently published by Ben Cohen for.NASPA during the webinar we will touch.upon the reasons for developing this.agreement and the benefits of using it.and then you can ask questions directly.to the panel when we get to the Q&A.session you can type your questions in.the chat box in the lower left corner of.your screen it may be helpful to have.the contract in front of you so I hope.you've all been able to download the.copy that I sent to you.you should also know that this webinar.is being recorded and will be available.for watching later so don't worry if you.have to leave because you can always go.back and watch it again my name is.Pinilla Jenkinson and I work with the.development of contracts and courses.here at vinca and I will be your host.today with me this morning I have three.members of the subcommittee that drafted.the agency appointment agreement first.we have John Ford who is president of.for NASPA and working for grain shipping.welcome John thank you then we welcome.handset blanket who is chairperson of.the drafting committee and also a member.of bankers documentary committee so.welcome home.thank you for Neely and finally we meet.Andrew Jameson from international.transport intermediates Club also known.as ethic welcome to you mentor as well.could you thank you everyone for coming.here today later in this webinar we will.also hear from general manager of the.NASPA mr. Jonathan Williams who will.give us an update of philosophers.quality standards he also participated.in the drafting of the agency.appointment agreement there are a few.other members of the drafting team who.could not join us today and these.members were mr. kuryakin scorers from.inter orient marine services mr. Fulvio.Carlini chairman of the fun aspects.artery and documentary committee mr..simona Collini from multi marine.services and finally dr. alexander.Geisler representing the Sherman the.German ship brokers association I know.that some of you are with us.and thank you so much for tuning in now.I would like to give the floor to John.Ford to say a few words about the.project thank you vanilla good day and.welcome everybody thank you for logging.in to watch the launch of our new form.the finance / executive committee.decided some while ago that it was about.time to review our standard liner and.general agency agreements we then.approached our friends at BIM Co an AI.tech to help us in this task because we.appreciate that they have expertise of.the pairing documents of this nature our.aim was to produce a document that was.up-to-date and usable in today's.practices in particular with the instant.access that we all expect now and our.communication methods our first.objective was to make the agreement as.simple as possible it is in a format.that can be used by anybody anywhere.ready for today's market so many agency.appointments are made these days over.the telephone or simple exchange of.emails and there is very little.protection for either party involved in.this contract we therefore decided that.there was a definite gap in the market.for an agreement and we have decided to.produce this form in a very simple.easy-to-use format which would therefore.protect the interests of both parties.concerned and make it simple in any case.where a dispute may arise.this is a new document and does not.replace our standard liner or general.agency agreement those documents are now.subject to review and hopefully we'll be.having another webinar in the near.future to launch those particular.documents so our objective today is to.give this document as wider focus as we.possibly can and encourage its use thank.you very much John for giving us this.insight in the background next I would.like to ask - blanket so you gave us a.ship owners perspective on the agreement.thank you vanilla welcome everybody good.afternoon good morning depending on the.time zone you are in and welcome.colleagues from the team I think when I.was asked by PIMCO to to chair this.committee I was very happy to do this.when I first time met the team in London.I was extremely happy even because I.found myself with the team that was very.enthusiastic highly skilled and they.wanted to make the best form ever.available and that was actually our aim.as John said very simple very easily to.use very easy to use and that's that's.what we have been trying to do and the.team was very helpful to do that.I think we've succeeded to put a form.there which we are happy with as a.committee and obviously the use in the.industry will tell us whether we were.right or wrong but that three months to.BC I think we did a good job there we're.very happy with it from the ship owners.perspective I think it was really.essential as John also said before to.have a new form because times have.changed we're tramping the world there.are issues here and there and we wanted.to get rid of these issues as much as we.could professionalize the system further.and it was a good timing to revise this.document and that is what we did and as.a ship owner I am very happy with the.result thank you very much.I think there seems to be a number of.good reasons to use.contracts now once you give the word to.Andrew who's provided us with legal.inputs throughout the drafting do you.have my knees orbitty considerations you.want to share thank you Bill and hello.everybody I think from iti see his point.of view we have four years represented.most of the world's ship agents and we.said John talked about have grown up.with a world where historically ship.agents have really had their.appointments done on a very casual basis.maybe by telephone more often a I find.by a brief exchange of emails.however just recently as actually the.world seems to be changing a little bit.we've seen more and more bespoke.agreements sent out to ship agents and.these have had so some problems one is.that people are using agreements which.simply were not designed for the purpose.so if I send out a services agreement.which just generally covers any service.without thinking about a special nature.of ship agency or alternatively.unfortunately we see agreements which.have been drafted by principles which.can be basically just far too onerous.and just simply unfair so it's really.great to have been involved in creating.a balanced agreement with.representatives of both ship agents and.owners and hopefully this agreement will.now provide a firm basis for people to.go ahead and do business thank you very.much.is there anything else you'd like to add.to the contract before we move on to.answering questions from the audience.okay right we will now open up the news.we're watching this webinar to ask.questions to the panel you can enter.your check with questions in the chat.box in the lower left I will read your.questions out and the panel here we do.the very best to reply to you before the.webinar we have already received some.questions via email and I will start.with some of those questions until your.questions start ticking in so now you.can use the chat function.your questions okay let's see how the.questions here so the first question is.how is agent and principal defined in.the agreement John absolutely it's very.very straightforward the agent is.referred to in box two and the principal.in box three we should point out that.these boxes can expand or beyond what.they are here so you can actually put in.as much information as you see fit but.primarily was designed on the premise of.fitting into one sheet of a4 that agent.box two principal box three I should.also point out that the word principal.can be defined in a number of ways that.could be the ship owner the ship.operator it could even be a head agent.that has a worldwide agreement so it.will cover any port call anywhere in the.world Jonathan that's a very important.feature of getting a properly recorded.agreement because often we do see.arguments as to who is the principal.classically when something has gone.wrong people will try and say well I'm.only an agent for someone that has not.been disclosed at the time that the.contract was entered into so I think by.having this clear box to be completed.with the principles fuller starred and.address I think that would be a.tremendous benefit and just be clarity.as to who these contracting parties are.yeah for me as a ship on I think it's.very important to to understand services.and I'm asking from an agent and the.form is actually very clear on that so.I'm very happy with thank you the next.question we've received is what happens.if the port call is cancelled and how it.is dealt with in the agreement huh yeah.well I mean it's like it probably what.what happens is if you're tramping.around and the vessel is redirected or.whatever.indeed you have a bit of an issue it's.bit depending on the situation have you.signed a contract already has the items.already made some costs on that matter.you had to as a shipowner obviously.settle these costs if not then you can.just simply cancel the contract I think.we've made it in such a way that that is.possible so I think it's very flexible.in that sense we have another question.here does the contract require that the.agent sends a full set of tariffs for.each cost such as dues pirate charges.tOA's charges etc if not what can the.ship operator do to get this information.so that they can analyze their costs.more easily and true would you like to.reply to that the contract was designed.to be relatively simple so it is not.over prescriptive as to details to be.provided agents won't provide pro forma.disbursements in the usual way and there.is reference to that in the agreement.the services that the agent is going to.provide to that principle are set out in.box 8 where you can tick and select the.various services you are going to.provide as in all these things if a.principal is unhappy with the.information they receive they can still.of course simply ask for it to be.expanded upon because a ship agent would.you agree with that yeah now I think as.I said before already I mean the Box aid.for me as a chef owner is is very clear.on these services I would request from.an agent and you avoid disputes I mean.that is what happens today in in in this.world you enter a port some things.happen the vessel all of a certain.encounters other issues and.you have to extend the services so you.can stipulate that there or you can add.to it and that makes it makes the.document again very flexible and that is.what I like as a ship owner okay so.talking about flexibility how is dispute.management addressed in the contract and.it's it possible to choose another place.of arbitration that London certainly we.have been cooperated by reference the.PIMCO dispute resolution clause and that.gives us a variety of options that can.be chosen in terms of English law and.London arbitration alternatively there.can be Singapore arbitration with the.option to choose Singapore or English.law or you can choose whatever law for.jurisdiction you feel is appropriate to.what you're doing so some people may.feel but the location of that agent is.the most important law an arbitration to.choose it has full flexibility we have.as I said incorporated the PIMCO dispute.resolution force which of course is a.well tried and tested clause which most.ship owners will now be fairly familiar.with if I may add to that you mentioning.a London and English law Singapore and.English for a Singaporean law or any.other country but there's also.stipulation about New York sorry New.York I think you know but for our.American friends I think it's very.important as well and the dispute.resolution clause is something we have.put a lot of time and effort in it is a.very big loss but this it covers.virtually everything and I I was very.happy that the team was able to accept.this clause I think it's it's a very.fair principle and I think the the other.important factor regarding this.particular part of our document the.dispute resolution the reasons there is.because when appointments are made over.the telephone or as Andrew said through.email exchange that particular question.is never raised the.is hungry for a poor call the principal.is hungry to appoint an agent and the.last thing they're thinking of is what.happens in the event of a dispute it's a.very sensible clause to have there.because disputes do arise it will be.very expensive if parties first have to.figure out which jurisdiction should.apply before they can actually get.started with any case if there is a.dispute before we find a question here.ticking it says what has a general.reception been to this agreement from.the majority of ship owners who are.increasingly trying to move away from.the agent principal relationship towards.a contractor subcontractor basis to ship.owners who were not involved in the.drafting and development accept this as.an industry standard can I just say one.thing ship owners were very much.included in the drafting and.prescription of his document as.represented by Han but I let you answer.the question Tommy actually was awesome.Kid Icarus who joined us from from.Cyprus and he actually was very critical.about a number of things so he helped us.very well to make this document also.very workable for owners it's an owner's.friendly document as well as I have said.before I mean it's giving clearance on a.lot of matters that are being have.become in disputes nowadays or that are.potential disputes nowadays and we.wanted to avoid that with the issuing of.this document and I think we did well.with with that form yes I think it is.important to point out that the the.agency appointment agreement is there to.protect both parties I also think that.it's important to remember and keep.focused on this is a special agreement.for one-off calls and not a replacement.from wider relationship if your.relationship does become wider then you.may wish to address it and address it.with some of the contracts we were maybe.producing over the next few months and.when we review of it.existing for now as per agreements but I.just do remember to focus on the fact.that this is for one-off calls and so.the relationship will tend to be on a.much sort of now.perhaps more traditional fitting yes.you're right and Sonia has been accepted.both by philosopher documentary.Committee and by being post documentary.committee as a good standard documents.so there's a lot of support behind this.document there's another question here.if the shipping agency have a contract.with their client.oh sorry if the shipping agency have a.contract with their client and they're.allowed by agency to put this agreement.as an appendix of this vehicle contract.if the shipping agent do that will I.sorry I'm not sure I understand this.question let me just read it okay so if.there is an existing contract can you.append this contract as an appendix to.that contract and will where the.contracts will be valid if you do that a.lot I would see no reason why not but.I'm sure our legal expert will give us.some advice well certainly from an.insurance point of view I'd be a little.bit careful to make sure that you don't.have two documents that clash and so.they take care it wasn't designed for.that purpose I suppose you could use it.in such a way that these are the terms.reach individual call that may be.presented but and have some other terms.that you may feel appropriate for an.ongoing relationship but again I think.it comes back to what I said with the.previous question which is remember what.this contract is for and it does sound.like the question is actually looking.for a different type of agreement over a.much longer period and a longer.relationship so it may well be even in.fact this isn't the one for you although.go through all the terms in here because.you still find valuable pointers as to.what to put in it can it can still be.quite a useful pointer as to what an.agent and principal should really.consider another question how do you.access a clean copy to timing of this.contract.very famous for ideas but you can.explain it much better than as well we.bin Co has an online chat a party editor.whereby you can sign up to this editor.and you can use this agreement in it I.think as I understood from finance.before left but members can also obtain.a copy yes I can see it all through idea.yeah okay so this is a way to do it I.think basically if you either call Benko.or philosophy after this webinar we'd be.happy to help you set you up so you can.start using this agreement another.question here will this contract work.for all cases for example is it only for.one voyage typical in trunk or can it be.used for something else I mean if it.could it could be used this prime use is.to cover one off port calls but there's.nothing in there would stop it being.used for a series of port calls for.example if you've got a project cargo.moving in to a certain port which might.be over four or five vessels it would be.perfectly suitable for that what it.isn't it isn't a liner agency contract.and it isn't a general agency agreement.those documents will be updated and.reviewed and hopefully out sometime.later this year but yes it could be used.in any circumstances and as Andrew said.there are many good clauses in there to.clarify questions that are raised.between principal and agent yes.committee did actually put in the Box 5.which deals with the ports of cool it.does actually give you the option of.more than one port so in that was a sort.of rotation idea that we had there so.yes you could perhaps using a wider than.just a single call yeah that's the idea.it's part of the form I think it's it's.very flexible it is very versatile.yeah so it can be used for many more.occasions than for the one caller but.the original idea was to make a one port.call sort of documents and.but we made that flexible it can be used.for many more things as well yeah there.is another comment here on many.occasions port calls are announced a.very short notice so can this Agreement.work on short notice.it's perfect for that I mean most.parties would know what they want in the.various boxes and they're pretty.standard standard questions and standard.answers and there's nothing in there.which should delay that appointment in.fact it should speed up the process so.rather than having a continual dialogue.of an exchange of emails between the.principal and asian' simply going.through the form getting both parties to.fill in the boxes should actually.shorten that task I would have thought.one of the reasons why we choose for the.Box formats because it's very very very.fast yeah especially online I always.find it slightly misleading when you.look at the printed version yeah because.actually you forget the wonderful.flexibility of just being able to fill.in the details oh yeah.here's an interesting question for you.if the owners or despondent owners.refused to sign the contracts what.routine agent do should he reject the.job or take the job but care.specifically with funds or take care.with things I said as the question of an.agent not often asked himself but an.it's a purely commercial question this.form is particularly useful for when.both parties may not even know each.other as often these types of things are.posted on the internet sites these days.and really it's established to protect.both parties when they don't know each.other.I'm sorry think in those circumstances.yes and what if there's another question.here what what if somebody an agent has.to agree on short notice saying.principal calling in.well we want you to get started with.this and we don't want to bother with.the contract we just want to get started.is there a possibility that in the email.exchange over the phone that they can.just agree to using this contract then.fill it in afterwards I'm not too sure.about the filling in afterwards bit but.you know like you sometimes do with.charter parties you have a recap and you.just you agree three mil and this is.what it is and you agree on the basis of.this I expect I will see very rapidly.see a few which would just say otherwise.aspiration see appointment agreement.yeah so I think that will happen the.important thing is to make sure that you.actually have got the information in the.boxes in some form or other I think.probably yeah as you say with charter.parties rather a lot of America reading.in that way as opposed to yeah but I.think also when we look at the questions.we're not talking about that document.that's going to require house of work.this this could be filled in in minutes.yeah it can be filled in a minute and.and also I think that if you if you use.the document as it is produced it will.give you actually the basic information.you require for content details and.things like that so you would want to be.fill it in it's it's and it kept me down.very quickly and it's a standard form I.mean we really have to make sure that.people understand it it's a standard.form so it will be used and it's from.now you will see it much more in the.industry occurring and on every sort of.what call you do I think that's.important because that means that.there's a certain quality guaranteed.a certain stability the text is not.changing so you can fill it in very.quickly you don't have to read it it's.just ticking the boxes shoot it out and.that's it basically it doesn't take any.longer to fill in this than an email.it's probably quicker another question.here often there are disagreements.between agents and owners with regarding.to the rate of exchange on the final.disbursement account yeah.sorry I just need to read the question.again to understand it seems that.sometimes their disagreement about the.rate of exchange when you've agreed to.for example using US dollars and see if.you have some costs which are not in US.dollars and they have to be exchanged to.for example US dollars howhow is this.dealt with and is it something that this.Agreement can help you with it certainly.can boxes 10 and 11 which a remuneration.and funding can very easily be extended.to include the agreed rate of exchange.or the date and rate of exchange to be.agreed for example the FT index of that.particular day or could be the agreed.rate that that's the two parties to.agree but there certainly it's covered.within the document yeah then there's a.question how do you identify the.Chancellor in the agreement and the.person says this is in regard of the due.diligence from the author writer or ship.owner no I just read it out as it says.how to identify the charterer in the.agreement this in regard of the due.diligence from the operator in brackets.ship owner yeah the question do you know.I think I think I know the questions.being raised and it's one of the.questions that we hadn't previously.submitted to us about the relationship.between the charterer the owner the.agent and in some cases the Charter is.agent and the owners agent and that that.certainly needs clarity but this form is.designed between the parties it could.well be the Charter is agent and the.charterer could well be between the port.agent and the ship owner or any.combination of those.yes agent principal so but that regard.the due diligence well that's really a.question of that any agent has to.undertake when accepting an appointment.there's another two questions here first.one is what about data security and then.the second one is shall an agreement be.signed for each and every protocol or.what is the duration of the agreement I.think we already touched upon the.duration that this is more or less for.single portholes.is there anything you'd like to add to.the data security or the length of the.agreement I think the length of the.agreement is as far as we are concerned.could be any length again it could be.stipulated within the form but a box.five refers to ports of call and that.could be over several sightings or even.over several ports it's whatever is.stipulated with in box 5 and therefore.presumably the contract would last from.the first book called to the last yeah.I'm not sure what data security the.question relates to this agreement does.provide the agents bank account and one.of the things we've had over the last.year or two years is rather a lot of.messages purporting to intercept between.agents and principals saying we've.changed our bank account.I know PIMCO have had lots of these and.I think now everyone has and I chassis.is put out a number of circulars about.it you have a bank account details there.I think if they all someone tries to.alter them then well you stick with what.you've got in the contract.yeah and it's a signed contract so I.think I'm not entirely sure I've caught.or whatever being the question you.wanted but that's one aspect of data.don't we see yep I think it's also a.question of common sense must prevail.with these things because I'm fortunate.there are too many rogues out there or.happy to to purport to be what they're.not just being sensible.information yes and in any event it is.the company storing the agreement that.has to make sure when you store a copy.of a signed agreement than you do it.according to the regulation that you.have to follow so it's difficult to put.that one one thing down to say this is.how you need to do it because it depends.on local law basically come on writing.thing in this this could be put in any.format so once it's for example PDF.format which can't be changed yes yes of.course when you when it's printed from.idea what you get is a PDF format that.cannot be changed but the way the way.you store it is that you can store it on.the idea server and there we have every.protection that is needed to follow the.current regulation or you could store it.on your own company server and in that.case you need to make sure what you you.know that you follow the local law about.data protection so protection of.personal data of the companies of the.bank account and such you can't have it.lying around the office when you have.visitors and be many things to think.about so I think in that sense it all.depends on how you store it and how you.keep it there's a question how would it.work for hub agency agreements yeah I do.mentioned earlier that this would suit a.hub agency agreement what I've entered.into myself very recently where we're.appointed by a hub agent it has the same.principle the principle is the hub agent.the port agent is the port agent is.those boxes are flexible and as I said.at the very beginning the word principle.could be used in many different ways and.basically principle is the company.appointing the agent and that could come.in many different guises and that's the.company that requires the services and.that's the company s going to pay for.the services required so I think it's.ideal for our agents.yeah yeah I think so too I have some.questions that are mentioned again here.and I'm not sure maybe the sound was not.working or maybe the message didn't go.out but here if it's again what if the.vessel is arnoun and last moments and.agents haven't got time to get the.agreement signs the agent will have to.accept an agency appointment over the.phone and start working on it then what.happens and I think we've already.basically covered it that you can agree.to it or you can just fill it in very.quickly if you want to I think we had to.re-emphasize the form itself could be.filled in within minutes it shouldn't.prevent anybody exchanging in the.contract I mean obviously it needs still.to be careful about the terms that you.use and the information you put on the.form but it is a very quick process yes.that's the reason why we designed it.like this with the box check format and.very generic so I mean that's basically.it's just as quick and you can fill it.in s just as quick as making a football.yeah so III think it's a matter of time.and the industry will adapt to it.because of its practicality yes yes.there's another question if the.principal is acting as an agent for.another party should we ensure that this.party is named in box 3 defense is going.to be responsible - you don't want to be.great things about this contract is that.it does actually make it clear who the.principal it is and who the agent is.entitled to look to for paint so if the.party appointing you is themselves an.agent they need to make that clear and.yes they should identify the principal.with their full style and address yeah.another question that might also be for.you Andrew this documentary be sign free.can it shoot this document be signed for.its party or could it be accepted.electronically for example by email I.think that's the way the world has gone.we still have a signature box there.and I remember discussing the fact that.it said and companies stamp but know any.of the usual ways of reaching agreement.will work and I imagine an awful lot of.them will be incorporated by reference.just saying I've always asked for agency.appointment agreement with the same.information produced yeah good question.here when an agent is appointed by.charter for loading cargo and the owner.requests husbandry matters can we use to.contract with owners for the hospital.during matters miles for that is no yes.and no and it's been an enormous.circumstances a charter is agent is.subject to the Charter part in agreement.with the ship owner would include.looking after the interests of the cargo.normally clearing the ship into port.sometimes out but not always sometimes.their duties finishes when the cargo is.discharged and normal husbandry duties.if there are other activities involved.perhaps hospitalization of a crew member.or even repatriation of crew or.additional supplies and vessel spares.and this type of things would not.normally be considered part of the.Charter as agents and duties and I think.a lot of agents have been caught out.with this in the past and I would always.recommend to a principal if they have.accepted the use of a charters agent.that they take the precaution of at.least appointing their protecting agent.on that port who would cover those.duties and I think that's quite.important yeah as a ship owner i will do.that i mean and and then it's my choice.whether to take the same agent.as a chapter because he's a Chargers.agent and he's performing certain.services already and I'm happy with him.if I'm not then I'll probably appoint.another agent and I can use the same.form for the husbandry or whatever.services I require so yeah I think it's.it's it's ideal and to use the form for.also for this relation yeah there is.another sort of add-on question to this.one says information is appointed by.Charteris and the agent undertakes both.cargo operation and husbandry matters.should ye age and then be entitled of.more than one agency fee as I understand.would you just say - you would say no.it's not something you recommend to use.the same that is purely a commercial.decision for that agent if he's working.for the Charter and the Charter is.remunerated with enough funds to to.cover those functions that's purely.commercial decision but I'd be more.interested to look at it from the.perspective from the prospect of an.owner whose vessel is charted into a.port and he has to rely upon the.services of the Charter is Odin who may.not undertake that work but there's no.obligation to do so so I would recommend.always that an owner which should at.least a point a protecting agent in the.ports to look after his particular.interests but what what is included in.the fee can be specified quite clearly.in nothings box eight which lists the.services that apply so if the Charter.and the agent have agreed those services.they should be listed in box eight if.the the owner or charter requires.additional services that I would assume.the agent has a right to charge for.those additional services but then the.fee is probably in in line with your.services rendered yeah yeah you have a.very specific question here so I just go.through it it's a long question very.very important reason League.of India have introduced new service tax.on input free all the shipping.fraternity has been surprised with this.sudden levying of the charges which is.not clearly spelled out by the.government of India under this rule any.imports in India under a sit contract.agents have to pay four and a half.percent service tax on input Freight on.behalf of the ship operator sHIIP.operator says that this cost is not.covered by him with the shipper or.exporter asked then asking us to collect.the same from the importer the importer.in turn says that this is not our cost.as we are unaware of the freight.component we are facing this problem now.let's say that this is the cost of the.end-user the exporter the shipper and.ship operator have to collect the same.from shippers or operators the same food.shippers or operators must put a clause.saying that the taxes are on the.receivers account.sorry it's a very long question there is.difficult to catch all the details is.this something that is I fortunate does.it's not particularly relevant to the.agency appointment agreement but we are.aware of this situation and it's.actually not only India there are one or.two places in East Africa which are now.looking at applying the same taxes so if.like any governments anywhere in the.world they're always looking for.additional revenue sadly they're looking.at Freight at the moment and frankly.that's if anyone wanted some more.information there is actually a circular.on our website we've been approached by.a number of Indian agents and a firm.instructed Indian senior Indian lawyers.to have a look at the situation but it.does unfortunately raise some some quite.difficult questions but ultimately the.agent should not be liable for these he.has the principal was appointed in and.if the worst comes to worst he'll have.to look to that principle from indemnity.and he can't just be piled up on the.agent to act as a branch alive of the.revenue or some other connection service.so I have a question here and I'm not.sure I understand the contrast but maybe.you do and can the contracts work.for us canal passages for NZ.appointments for Suez Canal Passage.yeah yeah of course yeah yes absolutely.and each other actually not only sewers.but that each end okay okay so there's a.question here we want to know if we.should consider the principle in box.three the owners or the disbursement.account or da des with some operators.are using nowadays so guess the question.is if you're dealing with a disbursement.account so as a provider should you put.that provider into box three or should.it be the principle whoever should be in.box 3 is whoever is appointing the agent.yeah and who is ever whoever is.responsible for paying the charges.normally that would not be a third-party.service provider because they are.performing a small function on behalf of.the principle that ship owner or or the.ship operator so it's not specifically.designed for that but if that third.party were the appointing party who were.responsible for the costs I guess they.could be considered the principle but.I'm not too sure Andrew whether that.would be the case well if they put.themselves down as a principle they make.themselves responsible as the principle.under this agreement we talked earlier.about hub agents and her with hub agency.would be appropriate I just don't see.someone who is simply there of a.disbursement account as an accounting.function would want to take on all the.responsibilities or filling a prince and.that's also depending between how the.arrangement is between the ship owner a.disbursement account provider you know.so it's the principle is the principle.that whoever puts his name down he's.liable yeah and I would think that it.would it would lead to all sorts of.problems in respective if you had a poor.call again let's say there was a sick.crew member or something would you have.to go through the third party provider.to find out what should be happening.lab crew member and then going on to the.ship owner or operator it would seem to.be doing along gate the communication.process someone yeah who are we we have.seen in the past you know many ship ship.ship ship management agencies putting.themselves there for a specific reason.because they tend to to make a different.agreement with the agent for crew change.or for perhaps sometimes the.hospitalization or things like that and.then they are the principal they act as.the principal but they should put.themselves also in that box then yeah.that makes sense.yeah and just in terms of this specific.question as far as our understanding.easier painful certainly then the DA.desk is it's just a service provider to.the principal so it's they they usually.never go out and appoint agents by.themselves so it would always be the.principal's name that should be put in.there and just one question that we.received in advance also was as an agent.what do we do if it only goes bankrupt.after the ship has been provided with.the service but before we receive any.balance owed to us I think this is the.interesting points firstly that an agent.any agent worth his salt should ensure.that he's got sufficient come the funds.from the principal to to pay for any.charges that may arise but I understand.obviously they could have been.circumstances during the port call which.have caused the problem and if the if.the if the owner has gone bankrupt in.the meantime it's quite possible that.the the money didn't make the account.that the agent was waiting for but I.would say that the first thing to do is.to reassure that when you take an.appointment for now.that he's actually got some money in the.first place I that's it your own credit.about credit you're willing to give you.something you have to really anything.there's not an awful lot of contracts.going to do if you're going to allow.someone to have a level of credit which.unfortunately they go bankrupt it is.going to be difficult to get the money.back from you there are certain powers.in the agreement that help an agent in.circumstances where they are not paid on.time and it does give the agent the.ability to terminate and to hold onto.documents relating to it to detain the.vessel and to inform some service.providers that they haven't been putting.funds I think fundamentally though it.does come down to a little bit of be.careful you give credit to and will.always be thus in terms of those.unexpected disbursements maybe that's a.slightly different issue than what you.can expect if you put out a usual.disbursement of proof of a disbursement.account you kind of know the credit.risks you're taking.unfortunately you can find yourself in a.situation where something happens.bankruptcy is a classic case bankruptcy.is a classic case but something can.happen to increase actually what I was.going to do is could increase the.dispersment account we have one where as.project coggan happens a lot with.project cargo actually but in fact what.was meant to be a six day pool called.ended up as a 26 day Paul call for which.the charges were significantly more of.an intended now in that circumstance we.managed to recover the money and a few.other associate it is it is something.which um without without putting any.commercial on it it's something I.Tennessee another to look at and we are.looking at where people have a.disbursement account that was.unanticipated where we've access.something that insurance is the only.answer to more of that to come I can see.there's still lots and lots of questions.in here but I think we're almost running.out of time here and we will soon move.on to the presentation of the phone ask.for quality standards but just before we.move on to the next I think I'll just.take one more question here could you.please elaborate a bit on box 10 annex a.and funding annex B you say a bit more.about what the intention between quite.clearly remuneration basically is how.much the agent is going to be paid for.providing the services in box 8 that's.the the fee agree between the agent and.the principal and box 11 the funding is.how that is going to be paid not only.the fee but obviously the port charges.and other charges that may have been.exerted occurred during the port court.because that could be part fund any.money fully funded in advance.whatever the agent the principal have.agreed so one box 10 knees how much and.box 11 basically is wind isn't it so.John that for my understanding as an.owner I think very important for me to.realize that basically whatever you.require under funding that's like things.like birth costs that's tech votes.so basically advantages you're going to.get from other parties yes and the only.thing that is basically something that.you can change as a commercial sort of.input from your end as an agent is the.fee that you put in box down because the.rest is all fixed fees for governments.or bowls or things like that right in.general cases yes because the funding.obviously is the known costs in advance.and it could be that you agree to to to.pay 80% or you agree to pay a hundred.percent if it's a long term relationship.between the agent and the principal they.may have a more flexible agreement it.could be the agents already holding some.funds it is unlikely but I mean that's.more the case in a liner contract but.this really is to protect yourself as an.owner and as an.by making it quite clear how much a.going to be paid and when you're going.to be paid because in very much in inbox.and under the funding element would be.some port charges have to be paid on.arrival or even in advance.yeah and for which the agent needs to be.funded in the balance yes thank you okay.good well unfortunately we have run out.of time in answering these questions I.just want to say thank you so much for.all of you attending and asking these.questions and please stay on for the.next session with the Jonas and Williams.the general manager of the NASPA just.want to say thank you to you Jon Han and.Andrew for your participation and if.there are any more any more questions.then you can send your questions to us.at contracts at beam Korg and we will.make sure that you get a reply to the.questions that you have about this.agreement so yeah thank you very much.thank you thank you buddy all good bye.

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